[Avodah] partnership minyanim

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Mon Feb 25 09:04:15 PST 2013

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 07:18:33PM +0000, Allan Engel wrote:
:> I don't know what Rav Ovadia did as a child, nor have I tried to find a
:> source that he's written to justify the practice, but ma'aseh rav, I do
:> know that if you go and daven at Rav Ovadia's minyan at his home in Har
:> Nof, pesukei d'zimrah on shabbat is done entirely by ketanim.

: Pesukei D'zimrah is not part of Tefilla BeTzibur. That starts either at
: Yishtabach, or just after.

I am not sure I get this "either"... The berakhah after Pesuqei deZimra
can't be more part of Tefillah beTzibbur than PdZ itself. PdZ is from the
geonic period. RSG is the first source of opening it with Barukh sheAmar,
but his siddur has it specifically for Shabbos and YT. Yishtabach can't
be any earlier than this custom of saying BsA; it was written to be
semuchah to it -- which is why it doesn't open with "Barukh".

(Carefully worded to avoid claims about the age of BsA itself, just
when we started saying it daily as a berakhah before PdZ.)

Getting back to the original conversation... I assume those supporting
Partnership Minyanim would fully agree. They aren't talking about trying
to change halakhah, but to put women at the amud for those parts of
the siddur that don't need a real chazan. In that sense, PdZ is less
problematic than Maariv -- Maariv was minhag Yisrael and thus effectively
not really a reshus even before chasimas haShas.

Which then makes me wonder if and why this structure really satisfies
anyone's religious needs. To be told: Yes, you can participate, but only
if we can prove your participation is in something that doesn't count?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
micha at aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
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