[Avodah] Nedarim - bilshon benei adam
micha at aishdas.org
Wed Jan 9 11:48:32 PST 2013
I just started Nedarim pereq 6, and something about this pereq and the
next one eludes me.
According to R' Yochanan and the Bavli takes this is the default, nedarim
are bilshon benei adam (LBA). R' Yoshiyah argues and says that nedarim
are in leshon haTorah (LHT), which the Y-mi takes to mean in addiiton to
benei adam. IOW, R' Yoshiyah is machmir and says a neder includes anything
the phrase would include in common usage, as well as any usage in the
Torah. (And possibly the Nakh as well. It depends how you learn Y-mi 20a.)
But here's what I don't get... Why is Rebbe spending two peraqim spelling
out examples of this principle? After all, he knew that different regions
have different idioms, and that LHT differs from LBA. So, he knew that
all these mishnayos wouldn't remain true over time.
E.g. if someone in EY today is "noder min hamevushal" (6:1), the mishnah's
list -- "mutar betzeli ubeshaluq" would not be necessarily true. We would
have to check out modern Israeli idiom and see whether most people would
include fried and stewed food when they say "mevushal".
And then the gemara doesn't treat the mishnayos this way either!?
E.g.: On Y-mi 6:1 vilna daf 20a R' Chiya bar Ba [the Bavli's R Chiya
bar Abba] tells of a time when R' Yochanan was eating some kind of
boiled bread-based food (kneidlach?) called chalita, and later says
"Lo ta'amis mazon behada yoma." This is then questioned from a beraisa,
"hanodeir min hamazon, mutar bemayim ubemelach" -- implying that foods
other than salt and water are included in "mazon"! They answer that
this beraisa is according to R' Yoshiyah.
Why not simply say R' Yochanan was speaking less precisely than typical
usage, or in his time and place "mazon" was used in a more limited sense
than what Rebbe (or R' Meir -- stam mishnah) encountered? Admittedly both
R' Yochanan and R' Meir lived in the Teveriah area, but my grandfather
and I speak different idiom.
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
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