[Avodah] Drops of wine

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 05:24:39PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> What are Hashem's "Emotions" altogether when they are not lessons for
>> us to learn from?

> You're learning the wrong thing.  What we learn here is that we don't  
> rejoice when one of our own falls.

Isn't that the whole discussion, whether "one of our own" ends with
BY, or if "zeh sefer toledos Adam" tells us otherwise?

>> And where do we ever find that we aren't supposed to be in alignment with
>> G-d's desiderata? If it's bad from His "Perspective" that they died, we
>> should be elevating our perspective to that we too see the bad.

> You're dropping context.  It isn't bad from His perspective that  
> Egyptians died.  It's bad from His perspective that His maasei yadayim  
> died.  We too should see the bad in our children or fellow Jews falling.  
...

We should also want HQBH's Will to be done, and therefore share joy in His
triumphs and sadness when He allows free will to temporarily thwart them.
The notion that there is something He is "mourning" that we should not
is an anathema to me. If it's "Bad" for Him, it's bad for us and all of
existence.

>> That what, that it's for the Jews who died in the Yam Suf? Chatzi Hallel
>> is what we're saying, not Him.

> No.  Hashem just lost children.  We can still sing praises to Him, but  
> to include parts that condemn Hashem's children is tasteless and tacky,  
> so we don't do it.  That's what we omit in Chatzi Hallel...

That works for omitting the first half of 115. But 116? The only person
David comes hard on is himself, when he says "Ani amarti bechadzi, 'kol
ha'adam kozeiv.'"

...
>> If all Jews are brothers, all humans are first cousins. Ben Azzai omer,
>> "'Zeh seifer toledos adam' -- zeh kelal gadol mizeh."
>>    
> Meh.  We make a major distinction between us and them.  You can't turn  
> Judaism into some sort of universalist pap...

Which is why I said brother vs first cousin. You're turning it into
black-and-white, whereas I see it as ever fainter and broader circles of
connection. But it's not me making this claim, all I did in the piece
you reply to is quote Ben Azzai. It's also inherent in the vision of
yemos hamashiach in Yeshaiah and in the second half of Aleinu. It's
seifer Ovadiah and Yonah.

...
>>> It's an interesting vort, but I don't think that sort of distinction
>>> exists in the Beis Yosef.  When they tie binfol oyivcha to chatzi
>>> hallel, they're saying what I wrote above.

>> Which is what? You said we people aren't supposed to connect the two. So
>> how does that fit Chatzi Hallel, expression our praise of G-d for giving
>> us a joyous occasion?

> I honestly don't see what I said that's so ambiguous.  You know, maybe  
> what I need to do is what Rabbi Bar Hayim asked me to do a couple of  
> years ago, and write the whole thing up with inline sources quoted, so  
> that there's no confusion.

I didn't say you were ambiguous. I said your take on the Beis Yoseif
doesn't fit his words -- or those of anyone else who follows the
Shibbolei haLeqet.

HE does invoke "binfol" and "maasei 'Yadai" to explain CH. To the BY the
two are the same, and do apply to human beings.

I'm not confused. You're simply wrong. (And RDBC's notion of halachic
process is so avant garde, dropping his name to imply he agrees with
you doesn't help your case with most of us.)

> <sigh> Again?  Really?  What part of what I've explained is unclear?   
> The Beis Yosef is saying this:

> We say Chatzi Hallel (omit the parts of Hallel that are condemnations of  
> Hashem's children) on Shevii shel Pesach because this is the day when  
> Hashem had to drown His children in the Red Sea, and it would be crass,  
> crude, and just plain mean spirited to include condemnations of others  
> of His children in our praises of Him on that day...

That's not translation. He doesn't say "crass, crude, and just plain
mean spirited" -- he quotes Mishlei. You claim something is in the BY, so
point to the line where you see this. (And then we can agree to disagree
about how to read that line, as this time we can't someone over to the
author to ask...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha at aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya