[Avodah] Drops of wine

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 02:56:03PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> But I also wonder why we would be expected to have a different response
>> than G-d's.

> I don't understand what you're wondering.  They were Hashem's maasei  
> yadayim.  Not ours...

What are Hashem's "Emotions" altogether when they are not lessons for
us to learn from?

And where do we ever find that we aren't supposed to be in alignment with
G-d's desiderata? If it's bad from His "Perspective" that they died, we
should be elevating our perspective to that we too see the bad.

>> Last, I think saying that when the Beis Yoseif et al tie "binfol oyivkha"
>> to Chatzi Hallel, they are not precluding feeling joy at our being free
>> from their oppressing us. I believe the point is to call for ambivalence:
>> sadness at the waste of tzelem E-lokim -- starting with what the Mitzrim
>> did to themselves and continuing with their death -- simultaneous with
>> happiness that justice was made manifest, that the wicked are no longer
>> around to harm us, etc...

> It's an interesting vort, but I don't think that sort of distinction  
> exists in the Beis Yosef.  When they tie binfol oyivcha to chatzi  
> hallel, they're saying what I wrote above.

That what, that it's for the Jews who died in the Yam Suf? Chatzi Hallel
is what we're saying, not Him.

I think the real difference between us is:
>                      Think about the Gemara's take on binfol oyivcha.   
> It applies to fellow Jews.  Why?  Because we're connected to them.   
> They're family.  Even if we aren't getting along with them, we're still  
> family....

If all Jews are brothers, all humans are first cousins. Ben Azzai omer,
"'Zeh seifer toledos adam' -- zeh kelal gadol mizeh."

>> Last, I think saying that when the Beis Yoseif et al tie "binfol oyivkha"
>> to Chatzi Hallel, they are not precluding feeling joy at our being free
>> from their oppressing us. I believe the point is to call for ambivalence:
>> sadness at the waste of tzelem E-lokim -- starting with what the Mitzrim
>> did to themselves and continuing with their death -- simultaneous with
>> happiness that justice was made manifest, that the wicked are no longer
>> around to harm us, etc...

> It's an interesting vort, but I don't think that sort of distinction  
> exists in the Beis Yosef.  When they tie binfol oyivcha to chatzi  
> hallel, they're saying what I wrote above.

Which is what? You said we people aren't supposed to connect the two. So
how does that fit Chatzi Hallel, expression our praise of G-d for giving
us a joyous occasion?

It's the Meshekh Chokhmah's vort. I don't know who else in the chain agrees
or not.

>>> Even widely respected talmidei chachamim can err and confuse alien ideas
>>> as our own.  As witness the recent discussion about widely respected
>>> talmidei chachamim quoting "Ein navi b'iro" as though it's a Jewish
>>> thought, when it's actually from the treyfer sefer.

>> Some level of emunas chakhamim is required WRT matters of Torah, no?
>> Otherwise, TSBP is whatever you want it to be, ve'ish hayashar be'einav
>> ya'aseh.

> Right.  And emunat chachamim starts with the Gemara.  I don't buy the  
> Beis Yosef lacking emunat chachamim and disputing a mefurash Gemara...

So taitch the BY for us.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
micha at aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas HaOlam