[Avodah] Drops of wine

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

In Avodah Digest 30:69, in the thread "Translation of Yayyin", R' Zev Sero wrote his understanding and translation of the phrase "v'nohagim she-shofchim l'eebood hamakos v'ein shosin osam".

In 30:70, I asked RZS where he got it, and he did explain his translation at length, adding, "This is poshut and obvious.", "The mistranslation comes from misparsing the Hebrew, and thinking it's giving a reason rather than merely an instruction.", "Common idiom."

Is it really such a common idiom? I haven't come across it before, but that really doesn't mean much. It's apparently pretty common to R"n Lisa Liel, who wrote, "The words are very clear, and R' Zev is obviously correct.", and expounded on it even further.

Most recently, in 30:71, we have a three-way discussion between RSZ, RLL, and RMB about many different grammatical ways of parsing the phrase.

All this for a phrase less than 50 years old?

Over Shabbos, I spent some time looking through my Hagada collection, trying to find this "common idiom".

I looked in quite a few Hebrew hagados, searching for the quoted phrase, or even any form of alef-beis-dalet in connection with the makkos, and never found it. Not in my hagados, and also not in the main nosei keilim on the last page of Siman 473 of both Shulchan Aruch and Mishne Brurah.

Maybe it is somewhere else, but the only place I found it was in Rav David Feinstein's Kol Dodi. And even there, it was not in the Hagada portion, but in section 11:12 of the halacha portion.

Specifically, it was not in the Hagada portion of the all-Hebrew Hagada Kol Dodi first printing in 5730 (I have the second edition, from 5734), nor was it in the ArtScroll Hagada Kol Dodi from 1990, which contained *only* the Hagada and not the Halacha section. But it does appear in the Halacha section of his original all-Hebrew work, and it also appears in his "Laws of the Seder", published in 2000 by ArtScroll, which contained only the halachos (in both Hebrew and English) without the text or instructions for the Hagada.

Folks, we seem to be discussing a phrase which was written by an author who is still among us. (I happened to see R' David at a wedding four days ago.) In Digest 30:69, in the very first Avodah post in this thread, R' Zvi Lampel, the translator of the very work we're discussing, already wrote, "I did not ask Rav Dovid Feinstein about this."

Maybe someone else wants to ask the author?

Or am I totally mistaken, and this phrase does appear elsewhere?

Akiva Miller

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