[Avodah] Drops of wine

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 02:40:27PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>      We are accustomed to spill them out for the loss related to the
>>      makkos, and we don't drink [what we spilled].

> I'm sorry, but that's grammatical silliness...

I don't think "We are accustomed to spill out for destruction the
[symbol of] the makkos" is plausible. It requires a significant
insertion, and requires believing RDF placed the object after
the prepositional phrase.

But... you do realize that while we are arguing what RDF may have
meant, we're discussing a translation of his work published during his
lifetime, and with no one's name on it (or the translation) but his own.
It's unlikely the author himself agrees that the translation is in error.

And you're correct, it would have to be "The spilling is for the loss
related to the makkos..." I'm even willing to have "for the destruction
related to the makkos", since they did destroy. "Ibud" means to actively
lose; I don't think destruction is the only way to do so, but WRT the
makkos, it was destruction.

>> The BDB has "for, to, in regard to". Bereishis 1:29, "lakhem yihyeh
>> le'okhlah", or as we recently leined "ish ish lamateh".

> Really?  The BDB?  If you want to concede the argument, just say so.   
> Honestly, the BDB?  Let's stick with context...

Ad hominem? Qabel es ha'emes mimi she'omro. I gave examples which you
then ignore.

...
> Your choice to misinterpret the Mechaber so that he contradicts a pashut  
> Gemara doesn't put anything to rest...

There is no interepretation. Quotes Mishlei and the medrash of maasei yadai
in his discussion in the BY of Half Hallel. As do the rest of the litany,
although before the Shibolei haLeqet only the medrash, not binfol.

Why would he do so, what language quibble will you use to turn "the sky
is blue" into saying "the sun is yellow"?

I feel you are grasping at straws that aren't even there.

...
>> But if there is no philosophical problem, why the surprise at the idea
>> that RDFeinstein suggests it?

> I can't answer that without being oveir on zilzul.

If I have to bank on the Beis Yosef's notion of Jewish values over Zev's,
or yours (or R/D Josh's), I won't lose sleep.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
micha at aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle