[Avodah] Translation of "Yayyin"

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jun 06, 2012 at 02:09:32PM -0400, Zvi Lampel wrote:
:                                                                   My
: rebbi held (as others) that grape juice is perfectly fine for arba
: kosos. In fact, he preferred it, for purposes of keeping alert during
: the seder. Aware of that, I asked Reb Dovid about Rav Moshe's apparent
: insistence (reflected in the "Kol Dodi Haggada") on wine versus grape
: juice, and the maximum amount of grape juice one may bi-di'eved mix into
: the wine. I raised the issue that I've seen many people neglect drinking
: the shiur because it is hard for them to have so much wine. Reb Dovid
: shrugged and said, "If they can't drink wine, let them drink grape juice"!

I am not sure I would use "bedi'eved" this way. RMF held one may be
yotzei with grape juice if wine would injur one's health, and possibly
even hold as you write besheim RDF. See IM OC 1:172.

The IM's maqor is R' Yonah's suffering until Shavuos from the after effects
of the 4 kosos, and R Yudah b"R Ilai didn't recover until Sukkos! (Y-mi
Pesachim 10:1, 69a)

The problem RYBS (and on-list, RSMandel) raised with RMF's raayah is
that these amoraim had no choice. Refrigerators weren't invented yet.
Grapes are picked in the fall. By spring, you either had wine, vinegar
or rotten grape juice. R' Genack checked with R' Feivish Herzog (of
Kedem Winery), who agreed with this assessment of the metzi'us. One
can't derive anything from R' Yonah and RYbRI avoiding grape juice --
there was simply none around to use or to avoid.

: One of the Kol Dodi Haggada's proof that grape juice is inferior is from
: the Rashbam, who explains "ta'am yayyin" means "yayyin ha-mesha-kare." I
: so wanted to put it in those terms -- that Rashbam holds that the "taste
: of yayyin" means the power to intoxicate...

RYBS insists that chashivus of yayin is subjective, citing the same
Rashbam (see RHS's summary, Nefesh haRav pg 185.) The Rashbam (Pesacim
108b "yedei yeyin") doesn't say "intoxicate", he says "mesameiach"; so
if grape juice makes the person suffer or not enjoy 4 cups of wine,
grape juice has preference.

Side-issue: Go find non-mevushal grape juice! Therefore RYBS would not
use grape juice for qiddush. Not mishum a lack of alcohol, but because
he holds like the Rambam doesn't allow yayin mevushal for qiddush.

So it all revolves around translating "mesameiach".

R ZP Frank holds the way RMF later did, explicitly saying only alcohol is
mesameiach, and brings two raayos:

1- Taanis 30a allows drinking grape juice in the seudah hamafseqes 
hilkhos erev 9 beAv.
2- Rashi (BM 66b "lepaquchei") explicitly says that wine is special
because its alcohol is mesameiach.

In any case, just to be clear that RYBS isn't a daas yachid, R' Chaim
Kanievsky says that the CI held the same.

And the problem is that there is no way to "just be machmir". One
side says grape juice is inferior, the other says that for someone who
doesn't enjoy that much alcohol, wine is inferior. For such a person,
each side's chumerah is the other's qulah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha at aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter