[Avodah] halachic infertility

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Tue Jun 19 07:33:47 PDT 2012


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:29:09PM -0600, Daniel M. Israel wrote:
:> The impression I got from RARakeffetR was that now that the option exists,
:> some poesaqim prefer IVH (in vitro fertilization with the husband's sperm)
:> to being meiqil.

: R' Forst indicates that hormonal treatment to delay ovulation
: is preferable to early tevilah. I find both of these positions
: anti-intuitive for two reasons. First, why would we prefer an eitzah
: that clearly was not possible for most of history? Second, although
: neither of these are terribly risky procedures, no medical procedure
: is completely without dangers, so why don't we give any weight avoiding
: unnecessary medical intervention?

1- Why should we limit ourselves just because our ancestors didn't have
options? Do you use printed sefarim? Why is this different?

2- There is no measurable risk at all to AIH.

:> (For anyone. Doubly so if rumor of this heter might
:> relay the message that 7 neqi'im isn't "real".)

: AIUI, there is no shortening of the 7, it is the 5 that can be shortened.

I would have said: the requirement that the shiv'ah be neqi'im is the
minhag. The waiting of a minimum of 5 days is to insure that all 7 days
are neqi'im.


:> If that's the route
:> they take, it's likely the poseiq would advise two tevilos:
:> Once, after niddah deOraisa, so that any consequent velad would definitely
:> not have the pegam of being a ben niddah; and
:> A 2nd time as per most couples, to fulfil the minhag Yisrael of 5 +
:> 7 neqi'im.

: Are you speculating? Because I would think that such an approach
: would seem to cast doubt on the first tevilah, and therefore raise at
: least as many problems as it would solve.

The idea is part of what I was repeating besheim RARR.

I don't think it does cast doubt, though. The first tevilah isn't even
to acheive a halachic outcome -- there is no issur to producing or
even marrying a ben niddah. It's not even clear the child would be a
"ben niddah", since issur niddah wasn't violated. It's just to tie up
qabbalistic interpretations of the idea, that might suggest a pegam.


On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:33:32AM +0300, Ilana Elzufon wrote:
: RMB:
:> The impression I got from RARakeffetR was that now that the option exists,
:> some poesaqim prefer [AIH]
:> to being meiqil. (For anyone. Doubly so if rumor of this heter might
:> relay the message that 7 neqi'im isn't "real".)...

: The heter you are referring to - tevilah during shivah neki'im, i.e.,
: tevilah after niddah d'Oraita - is indeed a much, much more significant
: kula than that mentioned above in the name of Rav Forst, where the
: compromise is only the minimum days before the start of shivah neki'im.
: Such a heter, if issued, would be based on the judgment of the individual
: posek, taking into account all aspects of the couple's particular situation.

I'm not sure why, since there are no relations until after tevilah at
the normal time. The early tevilah is to get rid of tum'ah deOraisa
(unless this was one of the small minority of cases where it really is
zavah gedolah, for the sake of eliminating any change of pegam. As I
wrote above, the tevilah it not being relied upon for anything halachic.

OTOH, if we actually pasqen lemaaseh based on the "unreality" of the
minhag of 7 neqi'im, we are weakening the walls of observance WRT normal
couples as well. Such a pesaq is dangerous policy.

: - Ilana

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Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
micha at aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
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