[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[hankman]

I finally did a little bit of quick check in the meforshim on my computer
on tzb"c:

Most paskan tzb"c is daureisa based on the gm' B"B 32-3 (not like R
Yoissi Hagligi there). See Ramo CH"M 272:9-14

Vayan Dovid: quotes a Tshuvos Chavas Yair 191 that tzb"c in a man is not
daureisa. He then brings a Bircai Yosef who relies on a Tshuvos Rashb"a
to show the opposite that tzb"c is daureisa in a man. He then goes on
to discuss (I only skimmed this quickly) causing additional tzar to an 8
day old at his bris and he writes quoting the Shulchan Govoah, "ve'asid
litain es hadin mitzara diyinuka," even though here there is a clear
purpose -- the mila. This fits well with the logic I offered. See there...

Kerem Shlomo: discusses te'ina and prika of a man who is overloaded. He
discusses the Rashba and the Radvaz who differ and offers a sevaa that
even if you hold that here you are patur as the Radvaz, you can still
hold by other tzb"c of man that it is asur daureisa but here it is the
man's own fault for overloading himself as opposed to a donkey who has
no choice in the matter...

Imrei Noam: Siman 9, on tzb"c: A longer piece I will only pull out
one or two highlights. He discusses tzb"c duareisa or derabonan and to
answer how the Mordechai holds derabaonan (unlike most other rishonim)
he brings the Chida who (or the sefer he was quoting) that there are two
types of tzb"c: tzar godol daureisa and tzar koton derabonan, and then
he writes "ayain shom ma shekosav aimas tzar godol ve'aimas tzar kotan,"
the aima seems to be tzar as well. (I did not actually look it up so I
just assume that's what he means).

The he brings different opinions whether the Rambam holds tzb"c is
daureisa or derabonan. He quotes the Radvaz, "af al gav d'tzb"c min
haTorah ain bo lav velo assei. He the brings from the Sefer Hashloma,
that we learn out tzb"c from lo sachsom shor bedisho, and if so then
the issur tzb"c dauraisa is only keshe'ose mase beyodayim but beshev
val ta'ase it might only be derabonan.

Then he quotes the shu't Shailas ya'avetz, that he calls novel, that there
is no din tzb"c daureisa by shektzim veremoshim, but only by animals that
can do work. He concludes, that for small animals that can do no work,
"ain lohem s'mach min haTorah lehakpid al tzaron ve'al harigason."

Then he starts to discuss tzb"c in man: Among others, he quotes from
Rabbeinu Yonah S"hY 266, "hishomer miltzaer balri chayim, hen beheima
hen oyf, VEKOL SHEKAIN LETZAER ADAM SHE'HU ASSUI BETZELEM HAMOKOM." This
begins to sound like RMB's kal vechomer.

Then he brings the Chavas Yair who argues against the kal vehomer wrt
tzb"c from animal to man, because animals don't have a "nefesh maskeles
lisboil," whereas man does. (I am not sure if he would apply this logic
for outright torture.). then he does some back and forth on this... He
also reports the Chinuch mitzvoh 550 (not to plow with an ox and donkey)
who also uses a k"vc for tzb"c from animal who are not bnei sechel to
man who is.

Finally he gets into the pro and con of whether there is tzb"c in a goy.

Ateres Paz Ch"M siman 9: This is also a long piece starting with whether
tzb"c is daureisa or not and then moves to whether tzb"c applies to man
or not. One of the points he makes is from Rabeinu Gershom in Erchin
that not delaying the death sentence is because of tzb"c of the mental
anguish of the prisoner ( and here there is seemingly the "purpose"
of the mitzvoh of misas bais din -- so purpose is not a cure all for
all circumstances of tzb"c -- at least not by adam). Then he discusses
tzb"c letzorech (for a "purpose") that it is mutar but he adds that the
olom refrains with this midas achzarius against the briyos because they
fear they may be punished for this... There is much more... mostly about
tzb"c for chochmas harefuos [lab experimentation])

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manastrer