[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[hankman]

CM responded:
> Not obvious to me. If the purpose is fulfilling my satisfaction, need or 
> desire (which must be why I am doing this) then why is that not 
> purposeful - and that will always be the case? That was the point of that 
> list of cases in the previous post. what is the difference between my 
> DESIRE for food, money, joy in a horn trophy on my wall,  warped 
> psychological joy or need to see pain. The purpose will always be my 
> satisfaction from the pain not the pain itself.
RZS reponded:
With that attitude how could there ever be a davar hamiskaven on Shabbos?
....
  And if I cut the head
off a bird because I want to eat the bird, for which it must be dead, then
my immediate purpose is the bird's death.  But if I cut the head off because
I need the head itself, and it's of utter indifference to me whether the
bird lives or dies, then its death is not my purpose at all, and it's davar
she'eno miskaven...

CM reponds:
I really don't want to wander afield and open a door into hilchos Shabbos 
and limit the discussion to  tzar balei chayim and torture.

Even here I would like to take a step back and consider a simple case. 
Consider the much vaunted annual baby seal hunt. According to you (and me as 
well), I have a "purpose" - the valuable pelt - but can I now choose either 
a painful or painless way to obtain the pelt at will? I would think not and 
avoidable pain would not be permitted and kept to the minimum possible 
consonant with the "purpose.". IOW if my "purpose" demands the death but not 
the pain of the animal, must I avoid the pain? If so, it follows that 
although the father (rebbe) has a legitmate purpose in hitting, nevertheless 
this would  not also necessarily be construed as a p'tur ("by definition" 
[RZS's phrase]) for the isur from the proposed kalvechomer from  tzar balei 
chayim for the case of human abuse/torture.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster