[Avodah] defining torture

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 08:35:49PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 15/05/2012 8:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> There is an issur against causing pain to others.

> Torture is *not* "causing pain".  Not by any definition.

Not all pain is torture, but all torture involves physical or mental
pain by every definition I've found. Except that of a "tortured argument".
(The UN requires "severe pain" in its definition, and Marriam Webster uses
"the infliction of intense pain".)

Since pain is assur, the fact that one component of torture is that
it involves pain does put it under the issur. And therefore there is a
halachic question of whether any of the matirim for causing pain apply
when the pain is that of torture, and what those matirim are. (I don't
know what they are, which is why I pulled out the obvious case -- real
and immediate piquach nefesh.)

We've gone back-and-forth on this now in dozens of emails, and I still
fail to see how you avoid this conclusion. It seems obvious to me that
there is no torture without pain against the will of the victim, and
that means questions of issur veheter.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

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