[Avodah] defining torture

Micha Berger micha at aishdas.org
Tue May 15 17:33:52 PDT 2012


On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 06:20:30PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 5/15/2012 3:24 PM, Simi Peters wrote:
:> I hope this isn't too pedantic, but can we define 'torture'?  Is there 
:> any objective halakhic definition anywhere?

: That's just the thing.  There isn't one.  There isn't a subjective one, 
: either.  The concept doesn't even exist, which is why some of us have 
: been maintaining that it's a non-question.

There is an issur against causing pain to others.

There are situations that override that issur.

Some of those situations will be what we call "torture" in common
English-language parlance, such as trying to extract information from a
terrorist about an immanent threat, in a situation where piquach nefesh
is dokheh.

Or, to tie to another thread, kefiyah beshittin ad sheyomar "rotzeh ani".
(To avoid machloqes: in the cases specifically listed as such by Chazal.)

On the other side, you can't beat someone with clubs to get them to
tell you where your dropped dime rolled. (Barring creatively setting up
some special situation where more rides on obtaining his cooperation in
general, or said dime, or....)

So, even without a halachic category parallel to "torture", we can still
meaningfully ask about when torture is or isn't allowed.

On a halachic level, we would have to phrase it as something like: When
is it mutar to cause pain to another for the gain of someone other than
the victim?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?



More information about the Avodah mailing list