[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[hankman]

RZS wrote:

Again, tzaar baalei chayim means hurting an animal for no purpose.
The moment you have a reason it's not assur. Whereas hurting a person
is assur, with certain exceptions. It only makes sense to discuss
torture in a case where it's already been established that force not
amounting to torture is allowed, and any such case will by definition
have a purpose, so the kal vachomer from tzaar baalei chayim will not
work.

CM asks for clarification:

I think you need to define “for no purpose,” wrt tzaar baalei chayim and then clearly define the heter you refer to when you say “force not amounting to torture is allowed, and any such case will by definition have a purpose” and verify that this would be the same “purpose” as the “for no purpose,” above.

For example, 1) I kill an animal for meat to satisfy my hunger, 2) I kill an animal for meat to satisfy my (not hunger) enjoyment of food, 3) I kill an animal for meat for my hunger, painfully, 4) I kill an animal for meat to satisfy my (not hunger) enjoyment of food, painfully, 5) I kill an animal to make an ornament of its horns on my wall, 6) I kill an animal to make an ornament of its horns on my wall, painfully and because I enjoy watching the pain, (you could throw this last phrase  into any of the above as well), 7)  I kill an animal  painfully and because I enjoy watching the pain – it is psychologically soothing to my psyche, 8) I kill an animal painfully because I want to and I am a control freak, so this satisfies me. Which are purposeful and which are purposeless? If I do it, it is always because I want to satisfy some desire I have  – so is that a “purpose.”

So in these various nuanced types of “purpose” cases, will the “purpose” in tzaar baalei chayim always be satisfied by the implied “purpose” you derived “by definition”  from the heter in those cases of haka’a ?

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


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