[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 03:01:40PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Again, tzaar baalei chayim means hurting an animal for no purpose.
> The moment you have a reason it's not assur.  Whereas hurting a person
> is assur, with certain exceptions...

For animals, you say that if it's for a reason, it's not assur.
For people, you say it's assur with certain exceptions.

Distinguish between "certain exceptions" and sufficient "reason".

To me they look similar in kind, different in quantity.

FWIW, the 1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture came up with
    ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or
    mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as
    obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession,
    punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is
    suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a
    third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind...

And Marriam-Webster:
    1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony
      b: something that causes agony or pain
    2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or
       wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
    3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument :
       straining

I assume we're talking about #2. But really, it's RCM's intent that
matters; it was his question we're trying to answer, after all.

So, whether or not torture is permitted appears to me to just be a
different way of asking which forms of torture are motivations included
among your "certain exceptions" in which causing the amount of physical
or emotional pain question is mutar.

As Zev said, there is no issur specific to torture. But that doesn't make
RCM's question trivial to answer. Nor does it mean that it is difficult
to find a case where torture is assur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

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