[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[Lisa Liel]

On 5/15/2012 7:09 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Lisa Liel <lisa at starways.net 
> <mailto:lisa at starways.net>> wrote:
> On 5/14/2012 3:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>>> On 5/13/2012 3:26 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
>>>>> is torture ever allowed in halacha???
>> ...
>>> If tza'ar baalei chaim isn't allowed, lo kol shekein humans.
>>> So, there has to be a criterion for justification.

>> I would think that the only criterion would be "is it necessary?"
>> Just as in tzaar baalei chayim.

> Necessary for what means? To force him to grant a Get? To force him to 
> make a business deal?

I agree with RZS. Any case where any physical coercion whatsoever is
permitted, I'd imagine torture would be permitted. I don't see any
halakhic distinction between types of physical coercion. Certainly
in a case of war, torture is a valid way of getting information.
Contrary to the nonsensical claims that it never or rarely provides
useful information, it can be extremely useful if done properly.

On 5/15/2012 9:05 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:47:40PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : I would think that the only criterion would be "is it necessary?"
> : Just as in tzaar baalei chayim.

> In general, halachic ethics are deontological, not consequentialist.

<snip>
> Back to nidon didan...

> For this reason, we can't simply say that torture is justified
> when you can inflicting no more pain than you are saving. That's
> consequentialist. Deontologically, we might require more suffering rather
> than actively inflicting pain.

The discussion is kind of lame if we ignore context. What is the purpose
of the torture? Is it to get someone to give up trade secrets? Is it to
get a terrorist to reveal the location of a bomb?

I don't think "inflicting pain" as such is forbidden. It isn't by
tzaar baalei chayim, and I don't imagine it is by people, either.
Possibly inflicting pain on another Jew is forbidden if there's no
legitimate reason, but as I said in the other email, I don't think
there's any source for it being any different than any other sort of
physical coercion, including imprisonment.

Lisa