[Avodah] Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng?

[hankman]

CM:
> Take a hypothetical future Peng Peng II with more extensive genetic manipulation that is born looking like (being?) a Roundworm on four legs, but with split hooves and that chews its cud and has the two simonim for shechita. Would you both still stick to your logic so assuredly?
RZS:
Why not? It has simanei tahara, after all.
CM responds:
You are missing the point. The point was that at some point it may not be a chaya or beheima and thus these simanim would no longer apply.
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CM:
> Or consider the genetic manipulation of fowl. Here the Torah basically gives us the 22 non-kosher birds, the others being kosheer. Here specie is determinative. So there are no Simanei kashrus utreifus (although some are given in shas and poskim). Then the operative question would be how much genetic manipulation could halacha tolerate before considering the result a new species?
RZS:
To the best of my knowledge, the definition of speciation in hilchos
kil'ayim is whether they can produce fertile offspring. Thus if this
creature can breed only with members of its own clan then it's a new
kosher species; if it can breed with sheep but not with roundworms,
then it's a sheep.

CM replies:
In your 1st case – “this creature can breed only with members of its own clan then it's a new kosher species.” Why assume it is a new KOSHER specie, perhaps it is a new treif specie, because perhaps it is no longer even a chaya or beheima?

In your 2nd case – “it can breed with sheep but not with roundworms, then it's a sheep” I find more acceptable but even here there are difficulties. For example some of these genetic hybrids are sterile and can not breed at all. In these cases your interbreeding test would fail to give any reults proving it a sheep, and would be subject to the safek that perhaps it is no longer even a beheima or chaya and therefore even though possessing simanei tahara (for a beheima or chaya) might still be treif.
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CM:
> Which brings us back to Peng Peng. when the Torah gives us the simanei tahara of split hooves and chewing the cud it explicitly only applies to the class of chaya and beheima ? not other living creatures. So we must revisit the question how much genetic manipulation would halacha tolerate before considering Peng Peng something other than a chaya or beheima. My intuition (sorry - nothing better than that) tells me we have not yet crossed that line with Peng Peng, but clearly that line exists and placing it will become a future subject for many shu?ts as this technology continues to develop.
RZS:
Then what is it? It's certainly not a fish, a bird, or a creepy-
crawly. I'd think that by definition if it has four legs that are
clearly visible when it walks then it's either a beheima or a chaya;
but if not, then it's something that the Torah never told us *not*
to eat.
CM replies:
Perhaps a beryah chadasha? Genetically that is certainly what it is. I think your argument assumes as fundamental an iron clad rule that if it has four legs – no matter what else is different – it is a chaya or beheima. I am not sure that the rule is as absolute as you imply and without exception. I am sure that your imagination can conjure up all sort of novel and weird creatures on four legs with simanei tahara say for example a bovine version of a centaur or mercow (with gillls and legs [and maybe even fins and scales too just for fun]) etc etc. and I imagine a rov would be hard put to apply the rule you propose in a naïve and direct fashion or to a mutated giant ant with only four  legs (missing one segment but with split hooves etc).

PS: There is this article:  
Half-man, half-goat discovered in Zimbabwe?
http://www.perthnow.com.au/half-man-half-goat-discovered-in-zimbabwe/story-e6frg4nl-1225780382385 
http://weeklyworldnews.com/mutants/12285/half-man-half-goat-creature/ 

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster



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