[Avodah] two fictional sects
David Riceman
driceman at optimum.net
Sun Apr 22 13:00:26 PDT 2012
RMB:
<<A similar case is in the Y-mi Peschim 4:1 26a. R' [Ab]ba said that
Benei Maisha excepted upon themselves not to cast their nets in the
Mediterranian. They then settle Israel's west coast, and so they ask
Rebbe if they could continue fishing, or if they were bound by this too?
Rebbe answers:Mikivan shenahagu bahen avoseikhem be'isur. al tishnu
minhag avoseikhem. (Reish Laqish then asks why it isn't assur because of
lo sisgodedu, but R' Yochanan answers him.)>>
This is also a misreading of the gemara. The fishermen in Tveria (I
imagine they were fishing in the Kinneret) had the custom of not fishing
with nets on Hol HaMoed. Several Rabbis objected, and they wanted to
undo the minhag. The gemara proposes as a hypothesis that they could
move to a new place to undo the minhag, and then objects based on the
story of Bnei Maisha.
Bnei Maisha had the custom of not starting a boat trip Wednesday through
Friday. Their children wanted to overturn the minhag. The gemara
proposes as a hypothesis that they can't because the minhag is a neder,
and then says well, why can't they do hataras nedarim. The gemara says
it should even be easier to do hataras nedarim on their parents neder
(see Lieberman's explanation of why in HaYerushalmi KiPshuto ad. loc.
v'timtza nachas).
The conclusion of the gemara is that it's not a custom not to start a
sea voyage, it's a halacha. The unstated conclusion (k'darko shel
haYerushalmi) is that the analogy to the fishermen of Tveria is invalid.
Notice that the fishermen's children are not mentioned. You might try
to posit an argument between the Bavli and the Yerushalmi based on the
hava amina that it should be easier for the children to do hataras
nedarim, but how does that strengthen your claim?
The Pnei Moshe and the Korban HaEdah understand the discussion of Lo
Sisgoddu as referring back to the Mishna, not to the fishermen.
Me:
<<But I don't know of any mechanism which enables me to require my kids to
adopt a practice without their consent...>>
RMB:
<<In which case, how can someone be born Jewish?>>
This is also neder shel rabim, but the rabbim are Klal Yisrael, not a particular town. "Kiymu v'kiblu hayehudim aleihem v'al zar'am ... v'lo ya'avor."
David Riceman
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