[Avodah] Eretz Yisrael and the Roots of Ashkenaz

[Micha Berger]

Three clarifications:

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 09:36:55PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
:> The depiction of the Baalei haTosafos is not one I would embrace, though.
:> You make it sound like they set out to fit the Bavli to Ashkenaz. I would
:> have instead suggested that they had a tendency to assume the absence of
:> a machloqes.

: I agree. I don't mean to imply some conspiracy...

I didn't think you did. That part of the post, as well as the closing
(general tendencies, not absolutes), was about the pedagogy used when
people discuss the topic.

I was trying to say I wouldn't embrace the depiction you gave, but
had no problems with the substance. I knew from previous iterations on
the topic that we were in agreement. Sorry that didn't come across.

:> Given the belief that the Bavli has importance just because
:> it is Chazal's final work and halakhah kebasrai, and the belief that
:> minhag Ashkenaz can't be entirely wrong this stance is natural.

: Wait, wait, hold off. The Bavli as we know it is not entirely the work
: of Chazal. A significant portion of the Bavli was edited and reedited
: by the Savoraim, who also wrote entire sugyos, and by Geonim, who
: continued editing...

You are using "Chazal" more narrowly than I did. My usage was kind of
correct by definition -- I was using Chazal to mean anyone from the
mishnah, Tosefta, beraisos or talmidim.

Thinking about it, this is not just a language issue. It probably reflects
my willingness to accept any opinion accepted as part of the standard
text of the Bavli as something more than a regular geonic statement.

There are those who say the Rambam doesn't hold that way. It is notable
that he doesn't quote any of the snippets normally attributed to savoraim.
OTOH, if the Rambam holds like the Y-mi over the stam bavli, it may
not be a large sample size remaning for the ommission to be significant.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 11:02:48PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> That's very different than saying they set out to align Minhag Ashkenaz
:> and shas as a project in and of itself. There are very few examples of
:> that across the entire corpus, not enough to call that a primary theme.
:> I can think of:
:>    1- mayim acharonim,
:>    2- not learning shelish bemiqra ushelish bemishnah,
:>    3- clapping on Shabbos,
:
: I thought that much of the work of Dr. Hyam Soloveitchik was to show how
: the tosafists intrepreted gemarot to justify local customs especially with
: regard to stam yenam, usury and general commerce

No surprise that R"Dr HS had long discussions of topics I couldn't even
think of. Still, even if we chould get the number up to 20 examples, it
still is a negligable subset of Tosafos's comments.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
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