[Avodah] two fictional sects

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 06:57:26PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> Aren't you assuming your conclusion? The mishna talks about minhag  
> hamakom.  The earliest source I can recall off hand for "minhag avos" is  
> the Ran about Herem d'Rabbeinu Gershom.  What justifies your  
> retrojecting the concept into Hazal?

(Abayei uses the words, when he canonized YT sheini from a minhag to a
derabbanan. But that's arguably not the same thing, since it was maqom
based.)

The first use of the idiom I could find is Machzor Vitri (#265, #278,
#506). "uminhag avoseinu Torah hi". That pushes it back to 11th cent.
Other early uses: Tosafos (Menachos 20b "nifsal") and the Rosh (Pesachim
pereq 10 #13). In Tosafos' case, ties into my post of a little while ago.

But that's the idiom, not the concept. These people left their maqom and
are told to do what their families have been doing for generations. Use
of the idiom or not, that is what we would call minhag avos. I think
that's simple de facto, not a presumption on my part.

Similarly, Pesachim 50b: Benei Baishan had a minhag not to travel from
Tzur to Tzidon on erev Shabbos. The next generation, who were poorer and
needed another day of sales, asked if they were bound by this chumerah,
and R' Yochanan answers they are, invoking "shema beni musar avikha,
ve'al titosh toras imekha".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
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