[Avodah] Purim on the 13th

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:23:16PM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
: RMicha Berger wrote:
:> On Y-mi Megillah 1a, there is a machloqes amoraim whether reading on the
:> 11th and 12th was from AKHG, or if AKHG only left reshus that a later
:> generation utilized to allow it. The 13th was added later either way,
:> on the grounds that it was sandwiched in...
: 
: I don't believe that the Yerushalmi says the 13th was a later addition.
: It says that there wewre to be days added "kayamim asher nachu," which
: was interpreted as the 11th and 12th. To this, the question was asked,
: perhaps the days referred to shoulkd be the 12th and 13th, and not
: the 11th? To this the answer is given that since they fought on the
: 13th, it wasn't "nachu." Then the question is asked, why then do we
: read on the 13th? And the answer is that it made no sense to be able
: to read before and after the 13th, and yet not be able to read on it.

But 1b also ties this to the question of whether one can darshen the
megillah. Thus, if it's misevarah and not the days of the pasuq, I
would think both sides agree it't use of reshus left by AKHG, and not
days they themselves chose.

:> Could we suggest that in AKHG's cheshbon (as in ours), Purim never fell
:> out on Wed or on Shabbos, and therefor they didn't have a need to permit
:> reading on the 13th?

: I don't understand the question....

Me either. I should have gotten Tues or Fri, which would avoid Yom Kippur
being on Mon or Thu, and thus my whole train of thought wouldn't work.

The following is now tangential:
: Lo BD"U was only necessary to prevent RH from being on AD"U; and AD"U
: was not instituted to prevent chillul Shabbos, but to make its observance
: less onerous and potentially dangerous by having consecutive days on
: which vegetables could not be prepared for eating and the dead could
: not be buried.

I understood lo AD"U to be for the sake of people who wouldn't have the
mesiras nefesh not to prepare vegetables for two days or leave a meis
out for two days, and they would cut corners.

WRT meisim, is it:
1- Some will bury their meisim anyway. Maybe via a shevus, kele'acheir yad
or some other excuse to self-justify.

2- Kavod hameis

3- Piquach nefesh. (And if so, does that depend on holding dechuyah?)

But I'm glad you kept 3b alive, because it's REALLY bothering me...

R' Yosa says that Purim couldn't be on Monday or Shabbos. So, we know
something about the calendar in the days of the early amoraim.

1- They held of two of our 3 dechuyos. Or, as REMT put it "they kept lo
D"U, but not lo alef". Or, lo Be"D Pesach.

I already wrote:
:                                 As RRW noted in the past, YT sheini
: shel galiyos doesn't fit lo BeD"U Pesach except a safeiq of Shabbos
: vs. Sunday -- there are no other pairs of adjacent days possible for
: Pesach...

The equivalent in the Y-mi's day would leave more opportunities for
sefeiqos: Wed-Thu, Thu-Fri, Fri-Shabbos, Shabbos-Sun.

But...

2- In the days of R' Yosa they had a calendar that had no variability
from the Rosh Chodesh before Purim (Adar or Adar II) through Tishrei.
Because he ties the day of the week of Purim to Yom Kippur.

We don't know how many days were in Shevat or Adar I, or even if these
were fixed numbers (as we have). But at the latest, everything from six
weeks before Pesach would line up the same every year.

The chasimas haY-mi predates Abayei's letter about minhag avoseikhem
beyedeikhem. This statement shows that much of the current calculation
for the calendar was in use before the end of qabbalas eidus.

But what kind of sefeiqa deyoma did the final generations of avoseikhem
have for Sukkos?

Second, the 9 weeks from Rosh Chodesh Nissan to Shavuos is long enough for
the news to reach Bavel. YT sheini shel goliyos for Shavuos is about not
minimizing people's perception of Shavuos compared to the other regalim.

But what about the 6 weeks from RC Adar to Pesach? Would there even be
sefeiqa deyoma for Pesach?

This R' Yosa could well be the R' Yosi of Y-mi Eiruvin 3:9 (top of vilna
ed 26b). R' Avohu visited Alexandria on Sukkos, so they had no sefeiqa
deyoma that year. He told them to take lulav on the 1st day on Shabbos.
(R' Avohu obviously also disagrees about lulav on day 1 in EY too.) R'
Yosi writes the people of Alexandria telling them, "Even though you have
for yourselves siderei mo'ados, do not veer from your father's minhag
from which your souls rest."

This would allow for the possibility that before Abayei and R' Hilllel II
we had a fixed calendar from Adar to Tishrei (R' Yosi's siderai mo'ados),
but Marcheshvan through Shevat were decided more ad hoc; those were the
months in which Sanhedrin made adjustments. Even today, the computation
puts all variability in Marcheshvan and Kislev, within that period.

YT sheini shel goliyos as a minhag (as R' Tam seems to imply) or taqanah
rather than real sefeiqa deyoma predates Abayei and the final fixing of
our calendar.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha at aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l