[Avodah] losing 'nishba' status

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 10:50:33AM -0700, Saul.Z.Newman at kp.org wrote:
:         the most  machmir  position i  ever heard  was a  rov  who said in 
: this era  [this was before internet yet]  so much  jewish  info is 
: available ,  no one should get a presumption of  'ignorance of the 
: law'....

(Two weeks ago, I commented here about this article
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n187.shtml#12>. I think that in
that one week she really "got" the difference between how her R community
sees religion, and the perspective of Yahadus.)


On RYGB's blog, he pointed to the same article. (Which he saw on RDE's
blog.)
<http://rygb.blogspot.com/2011/09/reform-judaism-magazine-campus-life-201.html>

>From the commnet chain:
    YGB said...

    1. Note that she never gets into the "dox" of Orthodox, but stays
    very much in the "prax" - as in Orthoprax. That is not sufficient
    to remove tinok she'nishba status.

    2. I think "we" came across in this article - and in the author's mind
    - with flying colors. Heck, even our mitzvas anashim melumada davening
    impressed her! How easy it can be to be mekkadesh shem shomayim!

    Tuesday, October 04, 2011 12:00:00 AM

We've argued here before whether TsN is only about a lack of information,
or also includes someone who knows the halakhah, but was raised with a
bias against believing it's real and binding on them. The CI's ruling about
lo maaleh velo morid indicates the latter, even though he was only talking
about a specific and chamur context -- that the person isn't a rasha in
terms of hatzalas nefashos.

Typical of such exchanges
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TINOK%20SHENISHBA>,
the thread that begins around RBK's v15n46 post.

R Dr Meir Shinnar, OTOH, tend to invoke the Radbaz (4:187), who olds
that someone who is led to believing apiqursus because of clear reasoning
from faulty assumptions, is not an apiqoreis. E.g. the thread at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TINOK%20SHENISHBA%20ETC>.

R' Charl Sherer has a friend in kiruv who was told by RSZA that all
chilonim in Israel are TsN. To quote RCS, "AIUI the reason is that the
chilonim are so hostile to fruhmkeit here that they do not and cannot
internalize what they learn." Rn Chana Sassoon (Luntz) adds the Binyan
Tzion and ROYosef among the meiqilim, and ROY includes people who go
to Seph minyan in the morning and then go to the game or watch TV in
the afternoon.

See RGS's response citing the Iqarim (who says that this is not true from
the one iqar of Torah min haShmayim) and the Abarbanel who disagrees
altogether. And the Minchas Elazar says that the only Qaraim the Mabit
declared TsN were ones who didn't live among Rabbinic Jews.

I don't understand the mi'ut of today's poseqim (and I say that with
confidence, since it implies that life is normal and ROY is following
rov) chamur posiiton, since the gemara doesn't so much make a chalos
sheim of TsN as much as give it as an example of shogeig or or oneis
(machloqes tana'im), a case where someone could be mechalel 2 Shabbasos
behe'elem achas. Which means that any valid reason why the person isn't
fully accountable for his decision ought to be a halachic factor. Even
if they aren't closely similar to a TsN.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
micha at aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham