[Avodah] Nar NaAr

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 06:02:34PM +1000, Meir Rabi wrote:
:> The qorei who leins "vehinei nar bokheh"?
:> Ever hear "vehinei nayr bokheh"?

: But this is a common problem when the vowel is moved, and one suspects this
: happens because we are not familiar with the Schwa, eg El-Azar becomes
: Ela-Zar, there was no such person in the family.

To reiterate the context:

We were exploring the question of whether Ashkenaz once had a sound
to the ayin. I suggested, based on "Yankev", that it made a kind of
/ng/ sound. Which REMT bolstered by noting that the /n/ in "Yankev"
being an ayin is lehalakhah -- in hilkhos gitin, a "Yankev" is written
"Ya'akov", and not listed as a separate qinui.

S, of "On the Main Line" (who owes us an introduction), contrasted
the slurring of ayin of "mayriv" or "tayna" with the total dropping
of the alef in "bal" (for "ba'al"). He continued by suggesting that
this indicates a yud-ish sound to the ayin, and "Yankef" is simply
because "Yaykev" doesn't flow well when you try to articulate it.

So the question isn't the droppage, but whether ayins and alefs get
dropped in consistently different ways.

I therefore pointed out that "vehinei nar bokheh" indicates that they
don't.

Personally, I think the rounding of the patach with a /y/ is part
of East European language patterns. Much the way EE Ashkenazim will
turn melekh into meilekh, pesach into peisach, etc... And while it may
be more likely among ayins, which were once voiced, do not reflect *how*
ayins sounded.

RMR, I don't see how your comments distinguish between "nar" and "bal"
on one hand or the (imaginary) "nayr" or "mayseh" on the other.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
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