[Avodah] sun and moon

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:02:28AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Pardon? I believe it's Shabbat HaMalka. Not Shabbat HaMelech.
>
> That's malka with an alef.  King.

    "Mah yedidus menuchasakh
    ant shabbos hamalka
    bekhuin narutz leqrisakh..."?

I think the idiom refers to the Shekhinah, the sephirah of Malkhus,
as she is accessible on Shabbos.

Shabbos 119a, R' Chanina's words are written "Bo'u venetzei liqeras
Shabbas haMalkah", with a hei. I don't even think he is speaking
Aramaic for an alef to be an option.


On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 05:11:30PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 26/08/2011 4:59 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Why not open a Moreh and look for yourself.
>
> Because I have no need to go to the Moreh.  What you say is explicitly
> contradicted in the Yad, so why look elsewhere?

Obviously, the Yad doesn't contradict a recurring theme in the Moreh.
Your refusal to consult the sources doesn't deminish their evidence,
just your ability to hold "a high level Torah discussion."

What the Rambam says in the Yad is that Hashem causes the motion of the
spheres -- but indirectly. The causal chain of mal'akhim described in
YhT 2:3-8 is continued at the galgalim and kokhavim in 3:9. It's clear
from 3:8 that kokhavim here means stars, not the planets and moon. (3:8
is scientifically wrong about the size of stars in comparison to the
sun, BTW.)

>>>> The Rambam doesn't actually say the moon has an intellect.
>
>>>> Yes, he does.  Explicitly.*All*  the stars*and*  spheres are intelligent,
>>>> and they're all more intelligent than humans.  That's certainly not needed
>>>> merely to keep moving in a steady orbit, even in Aristotelian physics.

>> The spheres, not the moon, planets or stars.

> No.  Look, there is no room for argument, he says it explicitly.  If
> your argument depends on the opposite, then your argumment is utterly
> refuted before it even starts.

He says the galgalim have intellects, including the galgal of the
moon. "Kol hakokhavim vegalgalim kulam ba'alei nefesh vede'ah vehaskeil
heim..." (YhT 3:9) The galgalim are transparent spheres "hamaqifin
es ha'olam kulo, hein agulin hadur, veha'aretz tzeluyah ba'emtzah"
(YhT 3:4). That's not the moon, that's a solid object representing the
orbit of the moon.

What he says explicitly is what I wrote.

The reason for their having greater intellect is because this chain of
intellect theory requires that intellects closer to the Divine Intellect
are greater. Which is why the Rambam describes the intellects of the
kokhavim and galgalim as "me'utah mida'as hamal'akhim, ugedolah mida'as
benei adam." Just as per their positing in the chain.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
micha at aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle