[Avodah] sun and moon

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 04:14:03PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 26/08/2011 4:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
[quoting the Moreh:]
>>  It is, however, not because the sphere has a soul, that it moves in
>> this manner; for animate beings move either by instinct or by reason....

> Um, doesn't this contradict your entire thesis?  Animals move by instinct,
> so why couldn't the galgal do the same?  What comes after the elipsis?

No. Visit the chapter. It moves because it has an intellect. It doesn't
have an *animal* soul, so it doesn't move the way we do. You snipped the
earlier sentence:

    We merely intend to say that the locomotion of the sphere undoubtedly
    leads us to assume some inherent principle by which it moves; and
    this principle is certainly a soul.

Why not open a Moreh and look for yourself. I cited a whole list of
chapters which mention the continuing motion of the galgalim as proof
they posess intellects.

>> The Rambam doesn't actually say the moon has an intellect.

> Yes, he does.  Explicitly.  *All* the stars *and* spheres are intelligent,
> and they're all more intelligent than humans.  That's certainly not needed
> merely to keep moving in a steady orbit, even in Aristotelian physics.

The spheres, not the moon, planets or stars. As I said in the part you
snipped. The moon is a huge ball embedded in a transparent sphere. The
sphere rotates, so the moon moves. Thus his argument is that the spheres
have intellects, not the balls themselves. I said, he could take the
gemara to mean the galgal of the yareiach, not the yareaich itself,
but I don't find that very compelling.

>>> It's Hashem, he says, that keeps the galgal moving; not the galgal
>>> itself.  Asserting intelligence on the part of the galgal tends to
>>> undermine his argument rather than support it...

>> And yet he explicitly says it, repeatedly.

> That's exactly my point.  Since it's a raaya listor, he can't possibly
> be saying it in order to prop up his argument.  Rather, he must be saying
> it because it's the truth, even though it *weakens* his argument for the
> existence of a Prime Mover.

Again, look at the Moreh and Yesodei haTorah. The Prime Mover has a
thought, which in turn is an intellect capable of its own thought, each
tzuros beli chomer, ie mal'akhim, until you get to the Active Intellect
and then first of the spheres, the one that holds the stars. Each one
a step more contingent than the one before.

Given the similarity to Qabbalah, and the Or Ein Sof descending to
form the tzuros of each world, which then fill in with chomer to become
the tzuros of the world below, I think you would find this part of the
Rambam's thought appealing.

Except that he embraces it all based on Aristo's notions of intellect
and impetus.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

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