[Avodah] moon and sun

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 10:05:36PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> How do you know?  The Rambam says they are intelligent; what grounds
:> exist to question that?
...
: We can ask a question on the Rambam what is the origin of his theory.
: The whole difference between modern and ancient science is that
: ancient science rested on
: authority while modern science relies on experimental evidence....

I disagree about the difference between Natural Philosophy (the ancient
precursor to science) and science. This is tangential, so beqitzur...
The difference is the notion of experiment. Natural Philosophy is based
on the world as "everyone knows" it works. It therefore is more in
line with intuition than reality, in cases where the two differ. (Both
the Natural Philosophy did and the scientific community does rely on
authority more than they care to admit to themselves, but that's a
tangent off the tangent.)

The Rambam's ra'ayah, although probably not his maqor, is disproven
elements of Aristo's physics. In Aristo's physics, an intellect imparts
impetus to an object, which them moves it until the impetus runs
out. We replaced this with notions of potential vs kinetic energy and
momentum. Momentum doesn't "run out", "objects in motion tend to stay
in motion until acted upon...", but due to friction and other forces,
it does dissipate.

So, in Aristo's universe, the spheres move eternally and therefore
someone is imparting impetus to them. Otherwise, the motion would run
down. Therefore, the Rambam concludes, the moon and other spheres must
be intellects, the source of that impetus.

In today's conception of physics, the moon has angular momentum, which
is actually being dissipated by the tides, and thus the month is slowing
down. But nothing involving intellects is necessary to keep the moon
running as long as it has. In space, there is little friction.

: My problem is that many meforshim take it literally. From the recent
: Meorot Hadaf: Maharatz Chajes explains that because the moon was
: diminished it caused people to worship the sun
: because now the sun is special...

This fits the Maharsha's explanation of the medrash, although you would
think the Maharatz Chayos would be explicit about it if that was his
intent.

I want to raise an interesting (to me) side-point. The MC was either a
Maskil (of the original sort, not the kind who made such problems for
the Yeshiva and Mussar movements decades later) or had enough similarities
in his thought for Rn Dr Bruria Henkin to make a sound argument in her
PhD thesis (which had her father's haskamah) that he was. A literalist
approach to a medrash that really isn't that amenable to one is therefore
a surprise to me; not what I think of someone with Haskalishe leanings.


On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 03:47:41PM -0400, R Zev Sero replied:
>> The sun consists of gases undergoing various nuclear reactions.

> Yes.  And therefore?  How does that prevent it from being intelligent?

and on Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 07:54:39PM -0400, R Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: I sometimes understand these midrashim and others like them (with admittedly
: no textual basis for doing so), as referring to the Malachim who are charged
: with the conduct of the sun, moon, animals, etc. Just as the Gemara makes
: clear that the various nations have Sarim...

The moon has nothing that physically implements the mechanisms of
intelligence. Therefore, if it has an intellect, it is of the moon as
it exists in an olam other than ha'asiyah. And therefore LAD, RZS's
position collapses into RMYG's.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
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