[Avodah] moon and sun

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

I wrote:
> What I've been describing are NOT the characteristics of
> thinking beings. They are characteristic of objects. Dull,
> dead, inanimate objects.

R' Zev Sero responded:

> HUH?!  How do you draw that conclusion from those premises? How
> do those premises even hint at a slightly elevated probability
> of that conclusion being correct? What is it about intelligent
> beings that would prevent them from obeying the laws of gravity
> and motion, or from having visible features, sizes, and colours?!
> It seems to me that this describes every single one of us!

Yes, of course intelligent beings obey the laws of gravity. But our motions aren't always predictable. It is the very UNpredictability of our motion that demonstrates intelligence.

I should revise my previous posts. It is not only dead objects which fail to stray from their fixed positions. Trees also remain in one predictable place forever. But "chai nosay es atzmo" - only someone in the animal kingdom (or above) can pick himself up and move elsewhere.

It may not have been clear from my post, so I will clarify it now: I never intended to offer PROOF that the sun and moon DON'T think. I merely wanted to illustrate the LACK of proof that they DO think, and that this lack of proof was as evident to the ancients as it is to the astronauts. I am in TOTAL agreement with RZS, who wrote:

> And therefore?  *That's* your proof that it's not intelligent?!
> That the astronauts didn't talk to it?!
> ...
> And therefore?  How does that prevent it from being intelligent?
> ...
> And exactly what experiment would you conduct to test whether
> the celestial bodies are intelligent?

R' Joel Salomon wrote:

> Predictable, yes, but so is the motion of the guards at
> Buckingham Palace.

This actually supports and strengthens my point. If one observes the motions of those guards to the point where they are as predictable as RJS suggests, then one will not be able to distinguish them from robots. There will be not any evidence to suggest that they are thinking beings. Of course, you and I have outside knowledge and information which tells us that those guards really *are* thinking beings, but there will not be any evidence to show it, and in fact the evidence will suggest that they might be robots.

This is exactly the same as those of Chazal who looked in the sky and saw no signs of intelligence, but had *outside* knowledge and information which told them that the sun and moon really are thinking beings.

Akiva Miller


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