[Avodah] shabbas//mishum eiva, etc???

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 03:45:48PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> The topic was an attempt to reason *from* the heter to heal nochrim on
> shabbos, to derive other heterim.  I pointed out that that heter is a
> modern chiddush with a shaky foundation itself, and thus not a basis from
> which one can derive anything new.

And I said that the theory behind the heter dates back to the gemara, and
it's only its applicability to real situations that was new. The hava amina
in the gemara is that the eivah couldn't be avoided, and the gemara says that
in such a case, we violate Shabbos. Then it nullifies the assumption about
the case. But the kelal WRT violating Shabbos stood unchallenged.

Why isn't that a valid point for extrapolation?


>>: c) even where you are talking about lo ta'asehs, "going around" is often not
>>: considered a problem.  Of course the most famous case of going around is
>>: prozbul, ie a going around of the requirement to cancel personal loans in
>>: shmitta, but similarly sale of chametz (which is clearly preventing the
>>: violation of a negative prohibition) is another.
>
>> Pruzbul circumvents shemittah derabbanan.

> But it works just as well with shmitta de'oraisa.  It just wouldn't be
> ethical to use it to circumvent the intent of the mitzvah d'oraisa.
...

I'm not sure it would be mutar. Abayei appears to be defending the validity
of pruzbul (Gittin 36b) not "mearly" its morality. And it follows up with
a question about Hillel's Sanhedrin was still overturning the Sanhedrin that 
enacted shemittah derabbanan. And that's when Rava invokes hefqer BD hefqer.

There is a machloqes Rashi and Tosafos whether Rava's answer replaces Abayei's
or completes it. Ayin sham.

> Since the intent of the rabanan in continuing it nowadays is zecher to
> the time when it was d'oraisa, making a pruzbul fulfils that intent.

Agreed.

> In the case of mechiras chometz we have no idea what Hashems' intent was,

I'm not sure we can pasqen a deOraisa based on taam hamitzvah, no matter
how obvious it may seem.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
micha at aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie