[Avodah] havdallah, and other berachos

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 11:17:40AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> There is a logical problem with Shemaya veAvtalyon being one of the zugos,
>> since that means that those two geirim were dayanim in the Sanhedrin, and
>> one, the av beis din. One suggestion is that while they contributed to the
>> discussion and ran the court, they weren't voting members.

> Were they gerim?

Edios 5:6, Yoma 71b, Gittin 57b.

AFAIK, Graetz was the first two argue that they weren't geirim.

I found where that "one suggestion" came from. I wrote last year
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol27/v27n134.shtml#04>:
:       RYBS asked R' Moshe Soloveitchik about how Shemaya veAvtalyon could
: have been one of the zugos. RMS answered that he had asked his own father,
: and R' Chaim answered that while they ran the Sanhedrin and voiced their
: opinions, they didn't actually vote.

The Rambam and the Gra explain Edios 1:3 with the assumption that they
were geirim.

Hillel says that a melo hin of drawn water invalidates a miqvah, "she'adam
chayav lomar kilshon rabbo". There are numberous explanations of what
one has to do with the other.

Rashi says it's the use of the measure "hin" rather than saying "12 log"
or "3 qav". "Hin" isn't used in the mishnah; but since that's how Hillel
heard it, that was the term he used.

The Rambam says that really Hillel said "melo 'in", not "melo hin". Then
Hillel explained that he did so since Shemaya veAvtalyon spoke with an
accent and couldn't say a hei. There is no such sound in Greek.

The Gra notes that lemaaseh the mishnah says "hin", not "in". Why would
Hillel see value in imitating an accent, anyway? The Gra therefore
suggests the explanation for for adding the word "melo" in "melo hin".
Since their saying "in" was confusing, S&A used more words to be clearer,
and Hillel did as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
micha at aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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