[Avodah] Yeridas Ha'Doros

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 02:12:44PM +0000, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
: > ... the gemara shabbos 112b: "if the early generations are
: > angels then we are mere humans, and if they are humans we are
: > donkeys...." it would seem that this principle has always
: > been known.

: I agree that this principle seems to have always been known. But I
: *don't* know that this principle proves anything at all. It is natural
: for students to look up to their teachers, and for the teachers to look
: up to their gedolim. And it is natural for children to look up to their
: parents, and for the parents to look up to the grandparents. But this
: is only a snapshot of one particular moment in time. Wait 20-30 years,
: and this generation will mature, and occupy the shoes of the previous
: generation, and what makes us think that they won't fill them just as
: well? Nothing but nostalgia.

I saved this post for today, when writing about the loss of the
generations doesn't seem entirely off-topic. (Clue to and future google
readers, today is 9 beAv.)

The gemara that R' Elie Ginsparg quoted (Shabbos 112b), is interestingly a
quote by R' Zeira of Rava bar Zimuna. An auspicious name for the topic. R'
Zeira was a contemporary of Rav Yehudah. But in any case, R' Zeira is
commenting on the difference between R' Yochanan drawing a conclusion
from tannaim, or him doing so from Chizqiyah, a contemporary. So R'
Zeira is contrasting his rabbeim with THEIR rabbeim. This is after
"[w]ait 20-30 years, and this generation will mature, and occupy the
shoes of the previous generation."


R' Papa asks (Berakhos 20a) why Hashem did miracles for earlier tzadiqim
but not for them. He invokes the nissim in the days of R' Yehudah. In
terms of learning, he says his own generation was stronger -- R' Yehudah's
generation focused on Neziqin, and they learned all 6 sedarim, and R'
Yehudah himself couldn't explain why a certain case was tamei, and R'
Pappa's generation had 13 ways to learn mes' Uqtzin. Abayei answers that
nisqatnu hadoros is about mesiras nefesh, not knowledge.

And two reasons why this isn't be nostalgia


1- There is clear-eyed recognition that the earlier generation was vastly
inferior in a different way.

2- One of the protagonists is Abayei, and therefore he himself WAS the
leadership R' Papa grew up with.

In terms of timing, we don't know who Rav Yehudah is -- there are three,
two of whom lived before Abayei. And that's assuming we stand on the use
of the title "Rav" in the gemara and not take it to be speaking of Rabbi
Yehudah haNasi. I personally lean toward this understanding, because
R' Papa asks "mai shena *rishonim*", which would indicate to my ear a
different era. The two possible Rav Yehudah's aren't really a new era.

R' Yehudah haNasi's grandson was niftar in the middle of the 3rd
century. The next R' Yehudah (and the second R' Yehudah Nesi'ah) passed
in or slightly before 320. Abayei was niftar in 339, and R' Papa in
371 or 375.

So, either:
Abayei was contrasting the leadership of his younger years against someone
(R' Yehudah haNasi or Rav Yehudah Nesi'ah I) who was niftar before Abayei
was born or at least before he could have been aware of their leadership.
Nostalgia isn't playing *down* what one remembers of their youth.

Or, 
Abayei was talking about himself, in contrast to his own predecessor.
(Unless you think he was disparaging Rava and R' Hillel, the nasi of
calendrical fame.) There is no generation of amoraim between R' Yehudah
III and Abayei. The statement about learning all 6 sedarim with multiple
interpretations and opinions sounds like a description of Abayei veRava,
the two who started the project that ended up being Talmud Bavli.

But in any case, it makes the statement autobiographical; more about how
his own mesiras nefesh didn't measure up to his rebbe's than one needs
nostalgia to invoke.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha at aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507