[Avodah] dina demalchuta

[Zev Sero]

On 19/07/2011 4:27 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 03:28:52PM -0400, I wrote:
> : Let's see, in the post to which you're replying, I mention Rashi's
> : obligation to follow all secular laws that are legislated in fulfillment
> : of the 7 mitzvos...
>
> I was referring to Gittin 9b, d"h "kesheirin" and "chutz migitei nashim".
>
> The gemara (top of the amud) says that contract be'arka'os shel aku",
> even if signed by aku"m are kesheirim, chutz migitei nashim veshikhrurei
> avadaim.
>
> Rashi:
>      kesheirin: deDDD, ve'af al pi shehanoshein vehameqabeil Yisraelim
> 	heim
>      chutz migitei nashim: because they aren't benei kerisus, they aren't
> 	shaykhi in Toras gitin veqidushin,
> 	aval al hadinim nitztavu benei Noach...
> 	(and then Rashi discusses why get shichrur)
>
> Pretty clear -- the reason why their contracts are binding is because
> DDD includes "hadinim nitzavu benei Noach".

Not "includes"; is included.  Dinim is the 7th mitzvah.


> The gemara happens to be
> an application to dinei mamunus, but Rashi's reason for why it works
> includes everything the 7BMN makes applicable to them in general.

And this is completely irrelevant.  All Rashi says is that their
contracts are valid, because the 7MBN obligate them to keep their
contracts.  How do you get from there to an obligation to obey their
laws, or to a prohibition on breaking them?  You still haven't crossed
the gap between Shmuel's statement and this proposition.



> Not only R' Broyde (whose article I was summarizing in the post I linked
> to earlier this thread) reads it that way. RHS has a similar understanding
> of Rashi (Nidah 61a), that had Rabbi Tarfon actually determined the guilt
> of the Jews who asked them to hide him, he would have been obligated
> to turn them in.

Nonsense.  Rashi doesn't mention the idea of turning them in; the only
options R Tarfon considered were hiding them or not hiding them.  Rashi
merely explains why, if they were guilty, he would not want to save them,
and Tosfos explains that he was afraid that if he hid them and they
turned out to be guilty he'd be putting himself in danger.





-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
zev at sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
		                            - Yitzchak Rabin