[Avodah] Middot of the Avot

[Simon Krysl]

I am not sure I am actually adding anything to this conversation...
This reading has actually always seemed intuitive to me (to the point
of being pshat) and when I was told that the middot were innate,
essential qualities of the avot I _felt_ that reading - that I learned
to be true, no doubt - quite forced. As in Micah  (ten emet laYaakov,
chesed leAvraham).... in the context, the prophet is not speaking of
the actual avot, but is it completely absurd to read the plea to grant
these middot to the respective avot as suggesting that they were given
at a certain point only, that the avot struggled to attain them and
were, finally, given? (We learn, as well, that understanding Yaakov's
apparent long-term troubles with truth (viewed as less important than
other values or aims) literally is superficial: can we read a
narrative of inner maturation here as well? Reading Akeda - no doubt
testifying to Abraham being a true believer, trusting in HKBH (should
we say, his truth) to the utmost - as an illustration of chesed seems
intuitively, again, forced. As a learning experience,less so.)
The association of Yitzhak with din seems to work otherwise: perhaps
learning to accept judgment is a different process, perhaps we don't
know enough about Yitzhak before the akeda... or most likely just I
don't know enough.
Shavua tov
Simon Krysl

>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 09:45:34 -0400
> From: Yitzchak Schaffer <yitzchak.schaffer at gmx.com>
> To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Middos of the Avos
> Message-ID: <4E68C6FE.4040205 at gmx.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 09/07/2011 17:13, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
>> It seems obvious to me that if they were pre-wired for PERFECTION, then they would have had no challenge, and hence no zechus for succeeding. But they did, and this (to me) proves that they were not pre-wired for *perfection*.
>>
>
> That makes sense to me as well, and would be my initial read; but built
> into that is the mussaristic assumption that these middos attributions
> of the Avos related to their personal growth. I'm challenging that
> assumption, especially given that there are Midrashic accounts of
> Avraham being endowed with mystical knowledge at the age of three, etc.
>
> So for example, one could say that Avraham was endowed ("artificially")
> with perfection in chesed, so that he could accomplish something
> transcendent in the world therewith. To develop this: let's say he was
> endowed with perfection in chesed, and had to act *against* that to
> balance it out, e.g. exiling Yishmael, putting Yitzchak up for
> slaughter. Sarah was a foil to Avraham's absolute chesed.
>
> And as to RMB's initial response:
>  > It looks to me like you're posing nature vs nurture WRT the avos, and
>  > thus the same "a mix of the two" answer ought to apply.
>
> I'd say nature vs. achievement, just to clarify that it was their own
> project and not a flat-out Divine gift. Perhaps you meant this, but
> "nurture" sounds to me more like upbringing than personal endeavor.
>
> --
> Yitzchak Schaffer
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13