[Avodah] Ein mafsikin b'massa'os

Tue Aug 2 06:42:15 PDT 2011

The following is a mesorah conversation that I believe really belongs
here. So, without further ado...

-micha

From: *Elazar M. Teitz* <remt at juno.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:50 AM

The question of where to stop for sheini when Masei is read alone is
because of those who are of the opinion that ein mafsikin b' massa'os.  The
only reason of which I am aware for this minhag is because of a connection
between the 42 masa'os and the Shen shel mem-beis osiyos, which should not
be divided.

However, Masei only lists 41 masa'os. The 33 p'sukim from 33:5 through
33:37 each contain one massa, starting in Ram'seis and ending in Hor Hahar,
and the 8 p'sukim from 33:41 through 33:48 each contain one, from Hor Hahat
to Arvos Moav.  I assume that the forty-second was the crossing of the
Yardein.  If so, since even reading them in one aliya will not equal 42, why
the insistence on it?

I am not arguing against the minhag; indeed, it is the minhag in our
k'hilla (although not in the Gra shul in Sha'arei Chesed, as I discovered
this Shabbos). I'm just trying to understand it.

EMT

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From: *Micha Berger* <micha at aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 6:18 AM

... and as far as I can tell oriiginates with the Baal Shem Tov. Which
would explain why the Gra shul doesn't follow this minhag, but makes
it interesting that Elizabeth does -- and, for that matter, that the
MB advocates it.

From: *Areivim* <areivim at sba2.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:04 AM

RMB:
> ... and as far as I can tell oriiginates with the Baal Shem Tov.

First source is Tzeror Hamor (quoted by the Mageb Avrohom 428:8) which
was one of the meguroshei Sfard in 1492 another is the Rema miPano also
over 400 years ago. (also Noheg katzon Yosef) So well before the Basht.

Nice suggestion - but incorrect.

BTW the PYH asks beshem "Ari bemistorim" (no idea) how come the maso'os of
parshas Chukas are not listed here?

SBA

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From: *R. Rich Wolpoe* <rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:43 AM

another is the Rema miPano also over 400 years ago»

Rema miFano. [The A is for ayyin]
Shalom, RRW

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From: *Poppers, Michael* <MPoppers at kayescholer.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 1:11 PM

RSBA replied to REMT:
> However, Masei only lists 41 masa'os. The 33 p'sukim from 33:5 through
> 33:37 each contain one massa, starting in Ram'seis and ending in Hor Hahar,
> and the 8 p'sukim from 33:41 through 33:48 each contain one, from Hor Hahar
> to Arvos Moav.  I assume that the forty-second was the crossing of the
> Yardein.  If so, since even reading them in one aliya will not equal 42, why
> the insistence on it?

Perhaps another answer: there are 42 "vayis'u"s...and before anyone says
that Ra'm'seis would accordingly be counted twice, see Ba'al haTurim on 33:3
re why "b'nei Yisrael" are only mentioned the 2nd time she"yis'u
meiRa'm'seis."

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

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From: *Areivim* <areivim at sba2.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:42 AM

Addendum: Divrei Yoel al HaTorah (by the SR zt'l) asks this (plus another
15-20 questions on this topic).

And BTW, he mention sthat the meforshei rashi also ask this question..

1) There are only 41 maso'os mentioned and 2) "Vaysu meRaamses is mentioned
twice. Why?

One of his explanations is citing the Targum Yonoson on 'Vo'eso es'chem al
kanfei nesharim' - that the clouds carried the bnei yisroel from
Raamses to the makom hamikdash where they ate the korban Pesach and then
returned them to Raamses.

Therefore there were actully 2 maso'os leaving Raamses - making a total of
42 maso'os.
==
And I have found who the Ari bemistorim is.
Written by a son of the late Gerrer rebbe [the Pnei Menachem], Reb Yehuda
Aryeh Alter z'l (SIL of RM Klein) who was tragically killed in a traffic
accident many years ago.

BTW the DY also writes: "raui lehavin mi nasan shemos lemekomos
halalu...midbar tziyeh ushemama, velo avar bo ish me'olom..."

SBA

------------------------------
From: ** <T613K at aol.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 9:10 AM
To: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org

This gets off Mesorah material, but I am sure that there were many
travelers in the desert, caravans that passed through, and they named
the places where they could rest, probably oases and wadis that had
water in the winter. The Sinai is not all endless sand like the Sahara.
There are many desert plants and animals there, and Bedouins, and in the
Middle Ages, several monasteries. An interesting short article about
the Sinai: http://www.sharksbay.com/new/english/TheSinaiDesert.html

"The Sinai desert is the natural land bridge between Africa and Asia and,
with its unique dramatic landscape and the fascinating culture of the
Bedouins, is one of the most impressive areas of the world"

--Toby*

------------------------------
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin at juno.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 9:18 AM

> This gets off Mesorah material, but I am sure that there were many
> travelers in the desert, caravans that passed through, and they named the
> places where they could rest, probably oases and wadis that had water in the
> winter.  The Sinai is not all endless sand like the Sahara.

You were apparently not listening that carefully to last week's haftorah.
See Yirmiya 2:6; the Gemara also learns from this pasuk that anyplace
that Adam Harishon determined should be settled, was, and vice versa.
The implication is that Midbar Sinai was a complete wasteland.

Gershon
gershon.dubin at juno.com

------------------------------
From: <T613K at aol.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM

In a message dated 8/2/2011 9:20:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gershon.dubin at juno.com writes:
> You were apparently not listening that carefully to last week's haftorah.
> See Yirmiya 2:6;  the Gemara also learns from this pasuk that anyplace that
> Adam Harishon determined should be settled, was, and vice versa.  The
> implication is that Midbar Sinai was a complete wasteland.

 But it is */not/* a complete wasteland.

You could just say the Gemara is wrong, or I guess you could try to find a
different understanding of what a "wasteland" means here.

It is not settled territory and would not support farms and cities, but it
supports travelers, and travelers certainly named oases, springs, mountains
and wadis that they visited as they traveled.

--Toby Katz