[Avodah] Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise!

[Zev Sero]

On 28/06/2011 5:46 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 05:15:05PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>                                          Yavan occupied the BHMK and
>> turned it into a pagan temple.

> For a couple of decades out of the entire galus. Alexander took over
> from Paras uMadai, and Yavan was in charge until a century or so before
> the churban.

Since when is Galus Yavan more than the short time they occupied the
BHMK?  And since when does Galus Madai extend beyond the building of
Bayis Sheni?

>>> Golah and galus aren't the same thing. Again, see bayis sheini.

>> Golah means the people who are outside EY.  But what's that got to do
>> with it?  The whole concept of "galus hashchina" comes from "galu
>> levavel shchina imahem".

> Galus is a metaphysical state of separation, golah is a physical one.
> Galus requires ge'ulah, a spiritual redemption. Golah ends with qibush
> haaretz.

And Galus is something that happens to *us*, and Hashem goes with us
out of sympathy, to make us feel better and to show how important we
are to Him.  It's not as if something can "happen" to Him ch"v.

>>> There are miracle stories of R' Chanina ben Dosa and R' Pinchas b Yair,
>>> and numerous others of Chazal. You're now positing that such people
>>> aren't in galus, and therefore assuming those midrashim refer to nisim
>>> is as rational as assuming the story is mashal. Do I understand correctly?

>> It has never occurred to me that there exist frum Jews who don't believe
>> that the story of R Chanina ben Dosa happened.

> The Rambam outright ridiculed those who do.

Where?

> The Maharsha clearly states
> that the more extreme stories are ahistorical, as does the Maharal.

Huh?  What extreme stories?  How are R Chanina ben Dosa's stories in any
way extreme?  Where do either the Maharsha or the Maharal cast any
doubt whatsoever on them?

> Me, I don't believe we're supposed to care. We are being anachronistic
> when we talk about Chazal's stories and the science of history. They
> repeated stories for their messages; the notion of having a precise
> record of the past wasn't valued yet. I think Chazal simply didn't care,
> and the whole question is a distraction from the stories' points.

On the contrary, the lesson *depends* on the story being literally
true.  If he didn't really made vinegar burn, then what's the point?
If R Pinchas ben Yair's donkey didn't really turn down tevel, then
what's the point?  The gemara certainly treats that story as literally
true, bringing proofs from it all the time.



On 28/06/2011 5:42 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I believe he meant Paras and Yavan.  You can't say that the 34 years of
> Paras "bifnei habayit" weren't bifnei habayit.

They weren't galus.

> And the mikdash was there during Galut Yavan, which lasted beyond the
> cleansing by the Chashmonaim.

Since when?  Who told you such a thing?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
zev at sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
		                            - Yitzchak Rabin