[Avodah] Ehrlachkeit, not Frumkeit

[T613K at aol.com]

In a message dated 6/24/2011 1:06:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bdcohen613 at gmail.com writes:

"I always  thought that it is a mitzva to be ethical, honest and  have
integrity.  "V'asita hatov v'hayashar" for starters. So how can  it be that
being honest  and ethical is outside the definition of  being "frum" if you
define frum as  "keeping the mitzvos"?
David I. Cohen

 
>>>>>
 
 
Here we go round the mulberry bush, so early in the morning.....
 
But I think I am beginning to see, dimly, what the problem is.  It is  an 
elementary confusion between "is" and "should be."
 
 You think that when I define "frum" as "observant" that I am giving  my 
own personal preference as to what the word /should/ mean, and that I am  
content for a frum person to keep Shabbos but be dishonest.  
 
Whereas in reality I am merely giving the dictionary definition of  what 
the word "frum" actually /is/ in common everyday usage, and I am  stating that 
it means Orthodox/observant.
 
How can an Orthodox person sometimes sin?  well duh, it just kind of  
happens....maybe you've heard of such cases.  Or maybe you live in an  idealized 
world in which every Orthodox Jew is a perfect tzaddik.
 
According to YOU, when a person sins, he is not Orthodox?  According  to 
/your/ definition, when you speak loshon hara, you are no longer Orthodox, no  
longer an observant Jew?
 
And if that /is/ how you understand it, do you have a different word that  
you prefer to use to distinguish between frum and non-frum Jews -- between  
observant and non-observant?  If you want to keep the word "frum" only for  
perfect tzaddikim who never sin, what terminology, if any, do you prefer to  
use in order to define distinctions between religious and secular  Jews?  
OR do you actually believe that any person who sins is at that  moment a 
secular Jew and can no longer claim to be religious?
 

--Toby Katz
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