[Avodah] The Rambam and Eliyahu haNavi

[Zev Sero]

On 23/06/2011 2:23 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 08:26:37PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
  
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:44:00PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 23/06/2011 12:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> The return of Eliyahu haNavi isn't mentioned in the iqarim nor in the
>>> Moreh. And in fact, in the discussion of mashiach in Hil' Melakhim
>>> (12:2), the Rambam explicitly lists it as among the details that "yeish
>>> min hachamim she'omerim" but we won't know what will really happen until
>>> after it does.
>>
>> Not true.  The coming of "Eliyahu" is one of the details he says we *do*
>> know...
>
> He doesn't say that either. He says "veyeish min hakhamim she'omerim
> sheqodem bi'as hamelekh hamashiach, yavo Eliyahu". You can argue he
> only means the "qodem" is speculative, or I can argue it's the entire
> "yaho". But he doesn't actually positively assert Eliyahu as part of the
> story.

Wrong.  Why are you starting in the middle of the inyan, with "veyesh"?
What has he just said *before* he qualifies it with "veyesh"?  He has
just said that we *do* know a navi, whom Malachi calls "Eliyahu", will
definitely come at some time before the War of Gog and Magog.  How long
before?  The navi doesn't say.  *Then* he quotes some chachamim that
this "Eliyahu" will come before Moshiach; but that isn't in the navi
so we can't be sure.

As for Moshiach ben Yosef, pretty much everyone holds that this is
precisely one of the details that we won't understand until it happens.
We know that such a concept exists, and that in hindsight we will be
able to identify something or someone as Moshiach ben Yosef.  The very
fact that we pray every day that the Tzemach David, i.e. MbY, is not
killed shows that there is no certainty that he will be; this may mean
that there will be such a person and his fate is undetermined, or it
may mean something completely different, but it certainly means that
we are not required to believe that there will be a literal MbY who
*will* be killed.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher