[Avodah] Tznius for Men

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

R' Y. Levine asked:

> Is there perhaps a double standard regarding this issue within
> the O community?

My understanding is that parts of Hilchos Tznius are requirements of halcha which apply to everyone, and other parts are dependent on community standards? If so, then most certainly, Yes, there are multiple standards, varying by which segment of the community one is part of. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

With that starting point, let's take a look at one of the sources posted by RYL, http://www.davening.net/tznius.html --

> In the more liberal Modern Orthodox community, women have a more
> relaxed dress code, and often wear sleeveless shirts, shirts
> with low necklines, or tight pants, and cover their knees with
> opaque tights, skirts, or sometimes pants.
> Stricter Modern Orthodox practice is for sleeves to reach the
> elbows and shirts to cover the collarbone, skirts to cover the
> knees, and to eschew pants in the presence of men.
> In the Haredi community, all married women cover their hair
> whenever non-family members are present. Women cover their
> elbows; wear skirts which reach a few inches below the knee,
> often mid-calf; generally avoid skirts with slits, preferring
> instead kick-pleats; cover their collarbones; wear stockings
> and closed-toe shoes; avoid certain colors, especially bright
> red.
> In some communities such as the Haredi community of Jerusalem,
> women wear loose vests over shirts.
> Men must wear shirts, with sleeves. Modern Orthodox men will
> wear shorts, but Haredi men will not, and many will not wear
> short sleeves at all.

I am vary intrigued by all this. With the exception of one short sentence ("Men must wear shirts, with sleeves.") this entire section consists merely of observations about various parts of the community. At no point do I see any attempt at telling people how to act. It is all merely a description of the current status quo.

Given that this website could not possibly have intended to say lashon hara about any parts of the community, I must conclude that the usefulness of their observations must be to show us the wide variety of practices.

Based on my understanding of the halachos which apply to everyone, and are NOT dependent on community standards, I am very surprised that the authors of that website would have such a casual attitude towards a community where the Jewish women
> have a more relaxed dress code, and often wear sleeveless shirts,
> shirts with low necklines, or tight pants, and cover their knees
> with opaque tights, skirts, or sometimes pants.

My only conclusion is that just as they merely made this observation without commenting on its standing in halacha, so too, their observation that
> Women ... wear stockings and closed-toe shoes
must also be a mere observation, not commenting on its standing in halacha.

Akiva Miller

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