[Avodah] border issues.....pikauch nefesh??

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 02:46:13PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2011 06:25:23 -0400, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
>> In any case, the holiness of the land in question doesn't appear to be
>> a milkemes mitzvah issue. David acquiring Suria was just as much a MM.

> Are you sure? I was under the impression that it was a milchemet reshut.
> What qualified it as a milchemet mitzvah?

Sure? No -- that's why I wrote "doesn't APPEAR to be".

>> One would need to be a specific type of Religious Zionist, the messianic
>> sort found among followers of R's Kook and Gush Emunim, to take it for
>> granted that there is a chiyuv to acquire and retain territory as part
>> of aschalta dege'ulasa.

> I disagree. And I don't think anyone conflates acquiring and retaining
> territory. Atchalta d'geula, in my opinion, is irrelevant halakhically.
...


And it looks like for a formal milkhamah you need a king, which seems to
be what the Rambam says in Melakhim 5:1-2 (not to mention the fact that he
lumps "Melakhim uMilkhomos[eihem]" into the same topic). I was thinking
that only a Messianic Zionist would accord the current gov't some of the
halakhos of melekh, since it's only they who make it the beginnings of
the return of beis David. If a RZ who isn't messianic about it doesn't
have anyone with even a small portion of the powers of a king, then there
are no grounds for a war. (Barring the prevention of a piquach nefesh.)

>> If today is still a full-fledged part of Galu[s]
>> Edom, I fail to see how a milkhemes mitzvah is possible (aside from
>> that derived from piquach nefesh) without a king -- and perhaps even
>> confirmation by both Sanhedrin and urim vetumim is required.

> With all due respect, R' Micha, I think you may be confusing milchemet
> mitzvah and milchemet reshut....

Actually, I think the problem is that you're assuming my "perhaps" is
shitas haRambam. I said "perhaps" because it is /a/ shitah, although not
everyone's.

>> The Rambam is even more limiting. To him (Melakhim 5:1) a MM is only
>> against the 7 amim, Amaleiq -- specific chiyuvim whose "cheftzah shel
>> mitzvah" is irretrievaly lost -- or defensive. OTOH, he holds the king
>> only needs confirmation for milkhemes reshus.

> Correct. And fighting to retain arei sfar is unquestionably a milchemet
> mitzvah, and not a milchemet reshut. Unless you know a source that
> says otherwise. Do you?

I don't know of a source that retaining cities is a MM. The Rambam isn't
one. I gave you his whole list (5:1):
    Ve'eizo hi milchemes mitzvah?
    Zo milkhemes
	(a) 7 amamim,
	(b) umlchemes Amaleiq,
	(c) ve'ezras Yisrael mitzar sheba aleihem.

Acquiring new cities is his example of milkhemes reshus. Retaining
current cities isn't mentions one way or the other. But it would appear
that a MM is a milkhamah that implements a specific mitzvah -- getting
Kenaan off of EY (Devarim 7:2), mechiyas Amaleiq and hatzalas nefashos --
rather than a war that is a mitzvah inherently.

> PS: Can I ask what the meaning of your "Tir'u b'tov" is? How would you
> translate that into English?

It's from RSWolbe. See <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/04/tireh-betov.shtml>.
    Taken in the future tense, "May you see", it becomes a blessing
    that Hashem allow him to see all that's good in his life. In the
    imperative, the same work becomes "Look", advice to the person to take
    the initiative and seek out the good of every situation. To aspire
    to the middah of Nachum ish Gamzu and Rabbi Aqiva of realizing the
    Hand of G-d in everything, and looking to see how even the tragedies
    in our lives are necessary steps to something bigger which He has
    in store for us.

    The two together yields a profound combined meaning. Live is the
    product of a partnership between myself and G-d. It is the sum of my
    free-willed decisions and the hand Hashem deals me. "Shetir'u beTov"
    addresses both at the same time, by praying that Hashem show the
    person good, and that the person look to find it. A greeting that
    recognizes the fundamental covenant by which man is redeemed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 37th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        5 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Yesod: When does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507               require one to be strict with another?