[Avodah] If the rabbi did not actually sell the Chamets

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, May 01, 2011 at 04:19:08AM +0000, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
: What makes you say that they are divested from their Chamets? It seems
: to me that they *planned* to divest themselves of it, but never followed
: through on it...

Bitul can be beleiv. Meaning, simplying thinking they don't have any
chameitz MIGHT actually qualify as following through.

RAM's argument reminded me of RMF's heter in the IM for not treating the
children of 2nd marriages of non-observant couples as mamzeirim. Usually,
ein adam oseh be'ilaso be'ilas zenus, so we can assume that there was
qiddushin bebi'ah. Causing problems since any 2nd marriage without a
formal get would produce mamzeirim. However, RMF argues, since they
thought they were already married through a ceremony, at no point would
they have thought to have bi'ah lesheim qiddushin -- they thought it
was done already.

Same too here: if they thought they sold it, would they ever have a
machashavah of bitul?

Or, IOW, even if machshavah alone is enough, does it have to be
machashavah actively, that I am now being mevateil, or is passive "it's
not mine" enough.

The Ran (beg of Pesachim) explains the gemara's reason for why we actually
bother to divest ourselves of chametz rather than rely on bitul as being
because the person might see and want the chameitz, and that desire alone
would undo the bitul. (Or the gemara could be understood as worrying
about the person who sees it, wants it, and caves to temptation. But
that's not the Ran's take.)

And why is daas alone sufficient? Because there is no baalus if there
is an issur hanaah. Chametz is (as the gemara says) a special case. And
from this faux baalus caused by bal yeira'eh bal yimatzei, one doesn't
need a gemar melakhah; thought alone is enough.

But the whole "chazar veni'ur"-like line of reasoning for why we don't
rely only on bitul MAY imply that machashavah that it isn't mine (or
that it is ke'afar) is enough, even without ever thinking that one is
performing bitul.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
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