[Avodah] anti-meat rhetoric "according to Judaism"

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 11:19:14PM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
::: Are you saying that  there's no real suffering going on?

:: Exactly, because an animal doesn't  have a ruach, and therefore there is
:: no one to suffer. There is stimulus and  response, with no awareness or
:: bechirah in between. IOW, I am saying that  Skinner and all the other
:: Radical Behaviorists were totally off in explaining  the human metzi'us,
:: but their kind of analysis does yield a complete  description of animals.

: I don't believe that's true and I don't believe that Skinner's 
: "explanations" actually explain any vertebrate behavior, certainly
: not mammals'.

: I enter into evidence the following two exhibits:
: a.  Bilaam's donkey

Which was created separately from every other animal.

: b. The calf who ran away because it didn't want to be shechted and the  
: tanna said, "You have to go and be shechted because lekach notzarta."  (and  
: then -- if I am not confusing two different stories -- he suffered terribly  
: himself because of his lack of compassion for his animal, until he told the 
: maid  to be nice and not sweep away his chipmunks or squirrels or kittens or  
: something)

That tanna was Rebbe (the story was already mentioned in this thread). He
suffered from a toothache until he told the exterminator not to get rid
of the rats.

Still, where do you see that the calf was aware of its own thoughts in
this story?

:                                                   But it is  indisputable 
: that they suffer physical pain, and the notion that they don't  suffer 
: because there is no "I" there is just wrong.  

Then what do you do with my objections:

1- If the inputs to animal thought include the watching of the thoughts
themselves, wouldn't that mean they have free will? And isn't free will
the tzelem E-lokim (see the Meshekh Chokhmah).

What gives us bechirah is that we can actually make decisions to change
or thinking, and this is because our thoughts are themselves subject to
self-observation and consideration. Animals have no bechirah, and thus
have no ability to think about their thinking.

Thus, to say an animal has an "I" that is aware of the pain raises problems
in how one explains Bereishis 1:26-27, and 2:7.

2- The part of the brain whichm, when damaged, prevents this ability in
people is a set of advanced cortical areas in the prefrontal cortex,
perhaps in concert with the temporal lobes, others suggest with
interaction with the centromedial thelamus. This is also known through
studies of blindsight -- people who aren't aware of being able to see,
yet know things about their surroundings.

Anyway, not even among the higher apes does any animal have the relevent
brain structures.

The US National Academy of the Sciences Instiute for Animal Laboratory
Research did studies in 2009 (ILAR 2009). They didn't find any evidence
for self-awarness (in this sense of the phrase; I don't mean a dog that
treats its own reflection differently than that of other dogs).

So the notion of self-aware animals would pose both hashkafic and
scientific questions. I might be overstating it when I say that Skinner's
description of pain as simply a stimulus that makes an avoidance response
more likely applies to animals, perhaps Skinner plus some computer
algorithm allowing for storage of state and more complex causality. If
you can think an alternative to meta-coginizance (awareness of one's
awareness) other than radical behaviorism, I'll consider the merits of
that possibility. I couldn't think of one.

There could be a middle ground held by mammals, which have an anterior
cingulate cortex, which since Price's work in 2000, is believed to tie
physical pain (nociception) to emotions (pain); at least it creates the
same chemical responses. But still, no "I" is aware of those emotions
(suffering).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
micha at aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507