[Avodah] Selling whiskey/bourbon

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

Apparently there has been some confusing information I will do my best
BEH to set the record straight.

On dilution of wine

    Water has a long history of being used to dilute wine in order to
    make it more palatable. The ancient Greeks thought it was "barbaric"
    to drink undiluted wine.[1] They further believed that undiluted wine
    was unhealthy and that the Spartan king Cleomenes I was once driven
    insane after drinking wine that was not diluted with water. Today,
    few people dilute their personal drinking wine for consumption like
    the Greeks ==> but the use of water during the wine making process is
    still prevalent.[7]

    7. J. Robinson (ed) "The Oxford Companion to Wine" Third Edition pg
    762 Oxford University Press 2006

Thus, Wine is routinely diluted even nowadays
in the plant - see Touger Below.

Re: Orange Juice? - I don't know.  

Thus, when making matzah ashira by Adding water to the orange juice
first - it MIGHT be bateil - but I'm not sure.

OTOH, Adding Water to Wine first is definitely bateil as per an explicit
SA. That's mamash how the SA justifies adding it to the grapes.during
the harvest.

If anyone has a source for qualifying this SA in a different manner
please produce it. Otherwise I must take the SA at his word that adding
water to grapes is OK BECAUSE adding water to wine before it is mixed
is bateil.

And if anyone knows a poseiq who disputes this SA, please state that
source


AIUI, ashkenzim are chosheish that ingredients such as wine would have
some water that MIGHT speed up fermentation and therefore avoid this
matzah ashira. There might be other ch'shshos, but it is cetainly not
deemed hameitz gamur.


Now the SA Harav has said, 
A. that which is added in the normal process, does NOT dilute and remains
hametz gamur.

Thus, 
B. b'pashtus re: wine prior to matzah ashira - whan routine amounts of
water is added to wine, it still remains wine gamur.

C. Of course excessive amounts would be different.

------------------------

R Eliyahu Touger in the Moznayim edition of MT maintains that water
is still added routinely in the wine industry. I cannot say if his
information is accurate or not. Lacking evidence to the contrary I
would assume he IS accurate. Nevertheless an error here is possible
- but I'd like to see some evidence that this is in error - not just
statements w/o support.


Diluting wine in the old days had little to do with the strength of
the alcohol, it had to do with preservatives used in cask wine before
bottling was perfected

As a matter of fact
The entire process of bottling wine changed everything I got this directly
from a wine professional - a sommelier - with a strong Jewish background.

Background:
Sommeliers several centuries ago used to determine how much water todilute
a given wine in order to serve it.

Nowadays that aspect is obsolete for sommeliers - as is m'ziga in
general. because today's bottled wine needs no m'ziga
Probably because
Either
A. It's pre-diluted
Or
B. It's palatable as is because it ages in the bottle w/o any preservatives.
Or
C. ???

Anyone still doing m'zigah is probably out of minhag avos or nostlgia.

FWIW Catholics still dilute their ritual wine because it was done at
yenner seder.

Also, I never quoted the Rambam. Just Touger's commentary. I don't see
how that was not clear, but now I am BEH setting the record straight.


RZS:
> It is indeed in the MA, 462:6, in the section beginning "veachar kach
> motzosi", in the name of the Knesses Hagedolah.

In siman 462 See
Hoq Yaakov 6 + 12
Ba'eir Hetev 7, 11
Hagah on MGA 6 by harav m'kutna 
MGA 3 

FWIW HY 6 [which I  saw 2nd] explicitly rejects Zev's Hilluq
As does BH 7 

As per HY 12 a few drops of water in ANY mei peiros before it hits the
issa is also bateil. My Hiluq follows HY, if the water hits the wine
first is different if it hits later. Hakkol modim a lot of water is
indeed a problem.


The Hiluq Both HY and BH make is simple
Drops of water in wine first is indeed bateil, in the batzeik it's too
late. MGA 3 says the same.

Batzir is not a  necessary hilluq at all
So why batzir in SA s'if 3? Pashut: that was the time water HAD to be
added "ee efshar". Not that adding later was necessarily too late.
The "too late" as per MGA 3 is leesha time.

BEH I will double check MB later at work.  

ZP
RRW
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