[Avodah] kol hamoseif gorea

[Hankman]

RMB wrote:

On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:48:41PM -0500, hankman wrote:
: Yes, (advanced/ultimate) science is (somehow) embedded in Torah, but too
: deeply to be uncovered by mortals (cf. chukim) and thus unreasonable to
: expect Chazal to have advanced scientific knowledge based on their prowess
: in limud Torah...

That's a stronger statement than the one I made.

I just said that the quotes "histaqeil beOraisa uvarei alma" et al speak
of what Hashem did, not what people are capable of. Therefore, it leaves
open the possibility that while nature was made to fit the Torah, people
can't necessarily see how.

I did not assert that's what the sources themselves say.

IOW, I just dismissed them as proofs; I didn't give any arguments one
way or the other about Chazal knowing science. I think the discussions
of the sun going behind the raqi'ah are sufficient for that. The fact
that Chazal still spoke that way, even after Ptolmey -- albeit not when
Ptolmeic theory was popular -- makes the point irrefutably.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

CM responds:

Actually, I am with you here, I did not intend my last post to sound as definite as it did either. I merely meant it as a possibility. I had previously posted in this thread that I was not staking out a position, just probing in attempt to clarify. In fact I am not as definite about it (the other side of the coin) as you either and not sure that it is "irrefutable." Those who would deflect your latter argument would say that Chazal where not speaking of the material world but in code about the spiritual world.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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