[Avodah] When did Judaism begin?

[hankman]

RKGM wrote:

I was going to respond to this thread with several paragraphs and examples, pointing out that until one defines "Jewish", the question is meaningless and unanswerable.

CM responds:

I agree. Definitions are always the key. But you can define anything away by an appropriate definition of your making. But what should matter is the accepted usage and the definition implied by that common usage.


RKGM further wrote:

But R' Zev Sero did a much better job than I. He wrote:

> In the same sense, a Ben Noach today who accepts the truth of
> the Torah and keeps the 7 mitzvos because Hashem told Moshe
> that he has to, and also keeps additional mitzvos of his
> choosing, is clearly a follower of the Jewish religion, and
> thus in English he is a "Jew" in the same sense that a Xian
> is a Xian or a Moslem is a Moslem.  What he isn't is a Ben
> Yisrael, which is what *we* mean by a "Jew".  (This is the
> issue that lies at the heart of the recent UK court case.)

CM:

I  beg to differ. See the ongoing thread on Areivim:   [Areivim] Erasing Ezekiel's Jewish identity.

 
RKGM further wrote:

As bizarre as this sounds, he has hit the nail squarely on the head. None of us is obligated in all Taryag mitzvos. If one wanted to, he could easily argue that a Kohen Gadol and a Yisroel Mamzer are following different religions. 

CM responds:

Again, I  beg to differ. See the ongoing thread on Areivim:   [Areivim] Erasing Ezekiel's Jewish identity.

But we are obligated in our particular subset of mitzvos unlike an aino metzuva veoseh who only has the 7 mitzvos. 


RKGM further wrote:

But one could also say that we are Jewish because we are trying to do whatever it is that the Torah is telling us to do -- and that applies to a Ben Noach as well!

CM responds:

Then why bother with a bais din to be megeyer when you have already become a "Jew" on your own by merely practicing Judaism? Besides, how could you be practicing Judaism if you can not learn torah (gezel), you can not keep Shabbos (chayev misa), can not do pru urevu (can not marry a Jewess), your kids can choose not to  be "Jews", etc. etc.  You can be sympathetic to Judaism, you can be desirous of becoming a Jew, you can believe in the authenticity of Torah, but that still does not make you a Jew or a "practitioner of Judaism" until you are megeyer. Of course if by "practice" is meant "pretend" that's another story. Eg. Little girls having a pretend tea party, they are only going through the actions but not the real thing. (This example may be a bit strong as the ben noach is an aino metsuva veoseh).

Again see the thread on Areivim which I do not wish to rehash here.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


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