[Avodah] More on the Seder

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 09:27:01AM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
: The five tana'im who spent the entire leil haseder in Bnai Brak
: weren't just telling the story...

Acording to R' Hai Gaon, they were darshening Yetzi'as Mitzrayim in order
to come up with a pesaq on backing Bar Kochva. All 5 end up being among
BK's supporters.

R Hai Gaon also translates the "askera" that killed Rabbi Akiva's talmidim
during the omer period (Yevamos 62b) as "sicarii" (singluar: sicarius),
a dagger used by the lower ranks of Roman soldier. (In contrast to
Rashi's identification of "askera" with diptheria.)

(BTW, Josephus calls the Biryonim who rebelled against Rome at the end
of Bayis Sheini "Sicarii" -- men of the dagger. A "sicarii" is also a
kind of gladiator who entered the ring with a long curved knife. So mabe
my use of "dagger" wasn't the best choice of word.)

This explanation of what they were up all night studying would explain
"Raboseinu, higi'ah zeman Qeri'as Shema shel Shacharis". Who would have
the temerity to correct 5 of the greatest rabbanim of all history on a
matter every Jew knows? And why there were talmidim who could see that it
was sunrise, rather than being with their rabbeim who couldn't? Rather,
it was the talmidim stationed as lookouts against the Romans were the ones
who informed their rabbeim. The rabbeim were in a closed room, in hiding.

All that said, I don't know if this R' Hai Gaon nor the nusakh "Amar
lahem R. Elazar ben Azaria harei ani k'ven shivim shana" (which REMT
brings) is a raayah for REMT. After all, they were up all night. But
the mitzvah is when "pesach matzah umaror munachim lefanekha" (kein
tihyeh lanu!). Perhaps they switched from the "ki yish'alkha binekha"
format of sippur to something more lomdish after chatzos?

As REMT also writes:
: If the story cited is accurate, perhaps the learning being done by
: the guests was unrelated to Pesach and its mitzvos. The "proliferation
: of lomdishe haggados," on the other hand, is meant to elicit discussion
: which is part and parcel of sippur.

Certainly R' Hai Gaon's notion was in the morning, thus the lookouts at
Shema time.

I would even argue that the machloqes Ben Zoma vs. the Chakhamim that
REBA cites may have been brought in that context. After all, the Chakhamim
conclude "'kol yemei chayekha' lehavi liymos hamashiach".

Now I'm curious to know if we can establish R' Hai Gaon's nusakh.


I think all this ties into RRW's question about when the youngest son
started saying Mah Nishtanah; IOW, when did Mah Nishtanah shift from an
"at pesakh lo" for a child who didn't ask questions spontaneously into
prewritten questions for the child to ask.

That same shift is continuing when we have melamdim giving our children
material they already know to present at the seder.

But it drifts from the real Q&A format of the original when the questions
are scripted.

(BTW, my father's rule was that we can tell over any devar Torah we can
say without looking into our notes. That too cut out about 1/2 - 2/3 of
what we were taught, keeping the seder down to managable length.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
micha at aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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