[Avodah] reform and conservative

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 04:09:14AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: Are you saying that unless we know forcertain that a C Jews is not a
: Kofer - we cannot count him into a Minyan?

I didn't say anything of the sort as my own opinion...
I wrote that I would bet the source RET was quoting was saying that. Not
that "no C or R Jew may be counted", but "unless you know, assume".
Certainly belonging to a movement which doesn't insist on TmS, the vast
majority of its ideologues argue against the concept, and there is
even an appendix on this point in the chumash they printed for general
synagogue use r"l, would be a serious ika rei'usa to that chazaqah,
and would lead me to assume that rov do believe kefirah.

That is not to say rov are koferim (to shift the chalos sheim from the
belief to the person). That brings us to the tinoq shenishba (TsN) issue.

Actually, I focused on RMF's pesaq, which is much like your take, but I
would have been more meiqil than you are:
: I don't see how you can say the HaMon Am of C has a Chezkas Pasul. They
: are mostly TNKs who don't delve into matters of Kefira. They join C for
: social reasons. JTS graduates are another story.

JTSA graduates are taught Torah with an anti-Tms bias. They are told "O
believes and tradition taught that ... but we know better because ..."
in a culture that at times makes traditionalists feel uncomfortable
members of the unenlightened. Is that really grounds for saying that
someone isn't a TsN?

TsN comes up on Shabbos 68a, as part of explaining a mishnah discussing
chilul Shabbos beshogeig. We repeatedly revisit the topic: Does knowledge
biased by simultaneously imparting skepticism make one less shogeig?

I don't think this was true of the typical C clergy (rabbi or cantor)
of RMF's generation. (Part of why I replaced your "JTS" with the more
modern "JTSA".) I am arguing the reality changed. But that's just me,
and the topic is a machloqes acharonim.

Furthermore, I added that even RMF's pesaq about R & C clergy probably
had exceptions, since there are known cases where a C rabbi was known to
be personally observant, and RMF accepted his eidus. Rather than argue
that minyan had stricter criteria than eidus, I would think this means
that even the teshuvah in IM was only speaking of where we don't know.

Again, shifting from discussing pesaqim to my personal inclinations: I
could see saying that a TsN who doesn't believe in a traditional concept
of deity can't be counted toward a minyan. Not belief in kefirah, but
meenus (Rambam, Hil Teshuvah 3:7: someone who believes there is no G-d,
or that the world has no ruler, or a polytheist, etc...) Not because
of his status, but simply because even a TsN can't daven to HQBH if
he doesn't believe He exists. (All talk about the "pintele Yid", who
obviously deep down would believe, aside...) Thus perhaps we could justify
stricter criteria for tefillah than for ne'emanus as an eid -- not that
this would apply to the case of an observant Jew who serves as a C rabbi.

However, according to the Satmar Rav, even a tinoq shenishba can't be
counted toward a minyan, and all of the above is irrelevent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
micha at aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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