[Avodah] Seeing G'zeiros Everywhere

[Chana Luntz]

RAF writes:

> I would just like to point out to R'nCL and all those who 
> wonder what RRW is harping on about, that RRW is quite 
> obviously intentionally misusing the term gezeirah, as he 
> himself stated. He is not investigating the creation of 
> mitzvot derabbanan, but investigating whether any legislation 
> binding on at least some people can be created nowadays 
> lemigdar milta.
> 
> Yes, R'nCL addressed that by protesting that this gets us 
> into humpty dumpty (or whatever his name, I think for Alice 
> in Wonderland, right?) territory, of using words as pleases 
> us, rather than following convention. Thus, she disagrees 
> with the use of the term gezeirah. However, since RRW has 
> explicitly stated and repeatedly made clear that he is 
> interested in the question of binding legislation lemigdar 
> milta, we can forgive the use of the term gezeirah and look 
> beyond that to the very interesting question he is dealing with.

I do think that it is an extremely interesting question, and one that it is
valuable to explore.  What I am trying to say is that exploring the question
is not helped by misuse of terminology, rather it is severely hindered.
Because once you point people in the direction of the sources and they see
that what is being discussed appears (due to misuse of terminology) to be
directly in contradiction to the rishonim (not to mention gadolim of the
current generation), most people who consider themselves Orthodox will
switch off, making the conversation impossible.  And in fact the
consequences could be worse than that.

Let me give you an example using the melacha.

If someone tells you that they are going to misuse the term melacha to
include standing on one foot.  Then they tell you that melachos are
permitted on shabbas.  Proof, standing on one foot is permitted on shabbas.
Is this going to help a conversation with anybody Orthodox about the nature
of things that may actually be permitted on Shabbas?  I would argue no.
Because you and I are of necessity going to need to stand up and say loud
and clear that melachos are not permitted on shabbas, lest there is anybody
out there whose knowledge of halacha is sufficiently shaky that they may get
confused, and because of this we cannot have a conversation, certainly not
on a public list, about "melachos" which are permitted on shabbas.  Avodah
is a public list.  It is fully googleable.  You and I cannot enter into some
game world where the word melacha is used to mean something permitted on
shabbas without potentially somebody grabbing your words from the public
list and claiming that RAF permits melachos on shabbas (and for you the
consequences are probably even more severe than for me).

Similarly I do not think it at all helpful to discuss the question by
misusing the terminology of gezera.  And remember this whole thread was set
off due to a statement that I quoted from ROY (which as I subsequently
demonstrated, was based on the rishonim), that we cannot have new gezeros
today.  With the response being that rather, there are gezeros everywhere. 

Once we tidy up the language and use it properly, then indeed I think one
can morph this thread into something extremely interesting and relevant
namely the questions you ask below:

> From my perspective, I see this as a most interesting 
> question nowadays, when outside of Europe and of 'hassidishe 
> communities (and also of KAJ and Elisabeth), there are no 
> qehilloth. (nu, there m,ay be another few exceptions, but the 
> US and Israel have few qehillot). How do you define the group 
> on whom edicts are binding? Can such edicts be introduced 
> from a back door? Can they, over time, spread and become real 
> worldwide minhaggim that are very close to actual gezeiros?

Well Israel, I am not totally sure this is true.  Although there are no
kehillot, there is the entire country.  And certainly the Chief Rabbinate in
the early years of the state passed a whole list of takanot - I can look up
the list if you want, they are at the back of Rav Hertzog's book that I
have.  What is the status of these takanot?  My understanding is that the
courts of the rabbanut will enforce them, and given that they involve
matters such as child support etc, and they are the ones dealing with that,
then it would seem to me that they exist and are binding.

The question of becoming a binding minhag I suspect is linked in to some of
the questions raised by RRW regarding the appointing of unfit dayanim, which
I hope to get to at some stage - or at least I think they probably can be
linked.   To my mind it has to do with the bottom up rather than top down
nature of minhagim, which also raises its head vis a vis dayanim.

> I admit that those are ineresting questions.

I agree, just please don't call them gezeros, and then I will be happy.
> 
> Kol tuv & good week,
> -- 
> Arie Folger,

Shavuah tov

Chana