[Avodah] Seeing G'zeiros Everywhere

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

Rn Chana:
"halacha Moshe m'Sinai, "

Ironic choice of words here

R Shimshon of Sens [Rash] proves that several cases Of HLMM cannot be
taken lliterally. FWIW This was posted on avodah this past year

And RSR Hirsch and Zehcaryah Frankel had bitter debates about defining
this terms

And the use of "sinai" with regard to high holiday melodies is rarely
seen as literally misinai, it just means "fixed"

So HLMM and Sinai is a popular topic itself for deconstruction and
while hard-liners might see this as "Reform" most ortho's who are into
Wissenshaft would dissent with that point completely.

[email #2 -mi]

Rn Chana: 
> This is a standard deconstructionist theme, that words are ultimately 
> empty of meaning. If you want to get into deconstructionism and Humpty 
> Dumpty (which was Lewis Carol's version of it, "words mean whatever 
> I say they mean"), you can do so, but at that point there is no point 
> talking about halacha, and you might as well go off and join the Reform. 
> After all, as I pointed out "melacha" is certainly an elusive word, 
> if you want one, so why not go on what one "feels" Hashem wants when he 
> wants us not to do melacha -- and whatever feels right in terms of your 
> understanding of the word is what you should do (or not do) on shabbas.
 
Why not see this as complex rather than deconstructive? 
 
 
A Chaveir just sent me this offline. 
 
I will BEH take a look at these articles soon 
 
Meanhwile the Chaveir wrote 
> I looked in the local beis medrash, and there's an article in the
> Encyclopedia Talmudit titled "Gezera", in volume 5. It has a section
> titled "sugei (types of) gezeira" from columns 533 to 537.
 
> From my very cursory skimming of that section, I see ten consecutive
> paragraphs, all beginning with the words "v'yesh shegazru".
> This leads me to conclude that 
> + they have collected at least ten distinct types of gezeros, 
>  or perhaps 
> + ten different reasons for enacting them.

I don't know the threshold here, but if there are indeed 10 categories of
g'zeira then it takes a lot of time energy to make a proper taxonomy. I
think it's premature to jump to conclusions! Havvu m'saunnim baddin!

[email #3 -mi]

This is intended as my final post - except for answering questions and
perhaps tying up some loose ends.


See Enc. Talmudit vol. 5 column 529 Deifintion: "Issur shell chachamim
bidvar hamuttar mishum s'yag V'geder ... "Divrei hachamim b'chol dor
v'dor lhachmir laasos s'yag" Seems straight out of Avos 1:1

Also See Enc. Talmudit vol. 5 column 540

3 eras delineating "sof g'zeira":

> One opinion: Only up thru AKHG and BD hag'dolim see fn 163 tshuvas Rav
> Sar Shalom Gaon - tshuvos hag'onim "chemda g'nuzah" 77

Not to be gozeir after the g'onim fn 164 Maggid Mishneh hametz umatza 5:20

And some say even the g'onim lacked this right after the Talmud Fn 165
[Rosh shabbas ch. 2 siman 20»


Tiyuvta on RRW? Maybe so or maybe no

Ok, assuming the above is correct then how can my colleague also be
correct?

Namely:
> A beit din can decide to enact a ban on anything it thinks needs
> to be banned, and the ban is only enforceable in the community which
> recognizes the beit din as its authority for such matters, and only to
> the extent that that beit din has the power to enforce its rulings or
> to the extent to which people follow the ruling anyway in the absence
> of enforcement power

[EG g'zeira against bigamy and qitniyyos on Passover Also how can these
posqim nullify a 'mishnah brura' {pun intended} of "asu s'yag letorah"!?]



Once you answer this vital question I will simply recommend some further
reading

NB Tur Sa Rema on Choshen Mishpat 1 thru siman 25 but especially siman 2

[TOC in tur for siman 2: "Mipnei tzorech sho'oh danin bechutza lo'oretz
"bizman hazeh" deenei k'nasos, v'dinei n'fashos v'dinei makkos ..."]

Tur ChM 2: [paraphrasing Rambam] V'keivan shero'im BD sheporztim ha'am
b'davar, yeish lahem ligdor ul'chazeik"



Rambam Haqdama to Mishnah Haqdama to mishmah torah re: Taqqanos G'zeiros
and minhaggim by Gaonim

Rambam MT hil. hametz umatzah ch. 5 re: 3 Gaonic g'zeiros or minhaggim.

Rambam MT Mamrim ch. 1 and 2


The aforementioned Enc Talmudit article

Elon's Mishpat Ho'Ivri Chapters 13-20.

Hataqqanos b'yisrael [locations still unknown]

Kushiya on the Enc article col. 539 "Ein ledamos g'zeiros hachamim
zo l'zo"

But that's precisley what RMF did when comparing a microphone on Shabbas
to "klei shir" by saying "mah lee microphone mah lee klei sheer?"!

And so too those who are "gozeir" on bicycles on shabbos Mishum shema
y'taqein mah lomar?

------------------------

On terminology and deconstruction

Regarding the Gaonic issur on NOT salting meat after not being washed
for 3 days, it makes more sense to me to label it as a g'zeira and
not a p'saq. [As was done with qitniyyos] Few of you will concur, but
I actually thing calling these g'zeiros. @'saq deconstructs the term
"p'saq" for me. I'd rather use a more straightforward approach.

And apparently ROY agrees that prohibiting bicycles is really a g'zeira,
but apparently he disallows such g'zeiros - but I don't.

KT
RRW
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