[Avodah] Kashrus and Shabbas

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 05:48:07PM +0000, rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com wrote:
:> But a gezeirah that would be binding on the klal, even if they never asked?
:> Daniel M. Israel dmi1 at cornell.edu

: Are you saying RMF couldn't make such a g'zeira?

I would, yes.

: His sons are doing this AIUI against the lower east side eruv based upon
: their father's p'saq, even though other posqim differ.

They aren't making a taqanah, they're enforcing the local pesaq and that
which they believe to be correct, even though it's a minority chumrah.

In your next line too I wonder why you use the concept of gezeirah:
: If your shul lains zecher and zeicher on Zachor - AISI - you are following
: a g'zeira of the MB to be machmir as opposed to following masoretic text
: or minhag avos etc.

The MB 685 s"q 18 calls the practice of saying both "meihanakhon",
not even a real pesaq. But even if it were pesaq, why would that make it
a taqanah.

In general, where to you draw the line between pesaq and taqanah.

I wrote http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/02/types-of-halachic-rulings.shtml
as a taxonomy of types of rabbinic declarations. It is based on a shiur
by R' Yonsan Sacks (of YU and my local Agudah), hil' Mamrim, and mar'eh
meqomos that were presented a 2006 Avodah discussion. Compare categories
2, 3, and 6. Teaser:

    2. Din deRabanan. A rabbinic law. These are set up by the rabbinate,
    instead of the masses [a contrast to category 1 -- minhag], in order
    to preserve the spirit of the law....

    3. Gezeira deRabanan. A rabbinic "fence". These are enacted to
    prevent a common cause for breaking the act of the law. ...
    According to the Tif'eres Yisrael (Ediyos 1), there are actually
    two sub-categories:
       a. Siyag. Fence (Hebrew; "gezeirah" is Aramaic). Something that
       will lead to a future violation to do an error in understanding
       the law. Such as...
       b. Cheshash. Concern. Cases where the threat of violation is in
       the current situation, because one is in a circumstance where
       habit taking over or other accident is likely.
    ...
    6. Pesaq. A rabbinic ruling. This ruling addresses a the questionable
    area of some law or custom....

The elisions ("...") within the three categories are of examples and
rules about when they can be later overturned.

: Also who says "g'zeiros may not be made" ge'onim made many.
: EG salting meat before 3 days!

I assume you're using the terms gezeirah and taqanah loosely and
interchangably, but Hil' Mamrim is quite clear that both require a beis
din hagadol. BTW, this topic came up back in v4n447, where RCBrown
argued against your claim of a taqanah against smoking because there
was no Sanhedrin capable of making one; but that was irrelevent since
it's the application of existing law to a new case -- pesaq.

The Beis Yoseif's expression WRT meat that is three days without melikhah
(YD 69) is "bemaqom hage'onim nahagu". The Ta"z (YD 69:32): "ra'ui lakhush
lachush ledaas hage'onim bemaqom shenahgu". It is pesaq based on applying
existing din to their understanding of the pragmatics. We have the word
"minhag" used to follow a pesaq that is regional, in addition to the
sense I gave above. Are you saying "nahagu" to follow a taqana?

Note that Rabbeinu Gershom doesn't make formal taqanos or gezeiros, he
uses the power of cheirem to excommunicate people who do certain things.
(WADR to the JewFaq, a/k/a Judaism 101, which can be found on numerous
web sites. The original for the relevent page is at
http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm)

But that's how I defined things. When speaking in halachic rather than
sociological terms, where do you, RRW, place the line between legislation
and interpretation?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
micha at aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
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