[Avodah] Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway?

[Chana Luntz]

> R' Micha Berger commented on "kol shecreiso shel tinok nichveis":
> 
> > Which is an odd test, since I'd be much less likely to
> > actually try that on a baby or toddler than to actually
> > see if an adult's hand would recoil. ...
> > Even with Rashi's explanation of added precision, since
> > it's assur to burn someone, but it is mutar to make your
> > own hand recoil, how could that more accurate measurement
> > ever be obtained? You would end up using an approximation
> > ... and thus losing the precision anyway.

And RAM responded:

> My understanding is that Chazal did not decide, on the basis of
> scientific experimentation, how to define bishul. Rather, the
> definition of bishul is a Halacha L'Moshe MiSinai, just like for all
> other shiurim.
> 
> The true definition of the critical temperature is "kol shecreiso shel
> tinok nichveis", and to say otherwise would be a falsification of the
> Torah, chalilah. Chazal had no choice but to point out that this is the
> technical definition.
> 
> But that was, as we say, "L'Halacha". They understood also that in the
> "L'Maaseh", the above was a rather useless definition, for exactly the
> reasons that RMB points out. So they also specified that for practical
> purposes, "yad soledes bo" is an adequate approximation.
> 
> It is unfortunate that the phrase "yad soledes bo" is used so
> frequently, and in such contexts as would lead us to believe that it is
> the true definition. But it is not. It is only a reliable
> approximation.

Well the biggest problem with this analysis is that kol shecreiso shel tinok
nichveis is the test brought in the Bavli to explain yad soledes bo, but it
is *not* brought in the Yerushalmi.  The Yerushalmi deals with either "yad
soledes" or "yad sholetes" and this is where the whole question of girses
that Rav Henkin discusses in the Ma'amer in Benei Banim I cited arises - for
example the Nusach in the Tosphos HaRosh is "mutar lehafshir b'makom
shehayad soledes v'asur lehafshir bemakom she ain hayad sholetes" but the
Rabbanu Chananel and the Aruch appear to have different girsos which say
that soledes equals sholetes.

If it was a halacha Moshe misinai that it was kol shecreiso shel tinok
nichveis why does this test get no mention in the Yerushalmi?  And if
anything the use of the terminology of yad soledes/yad sholetes in the
Yerushalmi would seem to suggest that some form of this is more likely to be
the halacha Moshe miSinai and the other is an explanation, albeit the
explanation that has been accepted as halacha l'ma'ase.

Regarding RMB's question about a more accurate measurement - the point that
I was trying to make in an earlier post is that while in the days of the
gemora, I agree it was almost impossible to have a reasonably accurate
measurement as nobody was going to try testing on a baby. Today however,
when we have medical literature to peruse, and thermometers, I would have
thought that by accessing the medical literature we would indeed be able to
arrive at a reasonably accurate measurement.  Not because the doctors have
done any testing on babies, but because there have been enough accidents
with coffee and tea and bathwater etc for them to have been able to piece
together a reasonably accurate picture, for good medical reasons.

I agree it does seem strange that the gemora would propose a test that would
take 2000 years or so to be able to properly develop.  But if it is in fact
true that this is now the case, should we be taking advantage of that
literature and honing our knowledge of what indeed is kol shecreiso shel
tinok nichveis?

> Akiva Miller

Regards

Chana