[Avodah] Kashrus and Shabbas

[Chana Luntz]

I wrote@
> But doesn't that mean, according to RYDS, that even the strict view
> holds
> that ain bishul achar bishul for a dvar lach at any point above
> completely
> cool - so even according to him my statement is not exactly unture? >

And RRW replied

> As per RYDS it's simply not yet bishul achar bishul?
> 
> Illustration life afterv death presumes death!
> 
> If a gpseis comes back it doesn't exactly count
> 
> So same here!  RYDS is saying the first bishul is ongoing and ergo no
> hazarah YET even below YSB until room temperature

So let's try and be a little clearer.

Going back to first principles - the idea is that when a (solid or dry)
object is cooked kol tzorko, all it needs, it is by means of this cooking
transformed into a state of "cooked".  If one wants to think of it as a form
of chemical transformation, one would say that it has been transformed from
state X to state Y, and the application of even more of the same, ie the
same kind of heat application that led to it being considered cooked, does
not do anything more to the item.  That is what is meant by ain bishul achar
bishul, which is what everybody agrees is the situation with a dry food.  If
you hold that yesh bishul achar afiya, then you say that while the
transformation is complete vis a vis baking, and no more baking can effect
any more change to the object, the application of bishul works to further
transform the object.  And if you hold ain bishul achar afiya, then you hold
that baking and cooking effect the same transformation, and no further
transformation takes place and hence no melacha of bishul takes place.

Now what is the situation with a liquid object.  The test that everybody
apparently agrees with to get it to its initial cooked stage is yad soledet
bo. Now the traditional Sephardi and Chazon Ish approach to what is meant by
ain bishul achar bishul vis a vis a dvar lach is to understand the test to
work the same way.  If it reaches yad soledet bo, then the transformation
from the status of uncooked to cooked is complete, and no matter how it
cools down the further application of heat does not achieve anything.  On
the other hand, if you hold yesh bishul achar bishul, then while once it
crosses the threshold of being yad soledet bo, it is the equivalent of kol
tzorko and no further application of heat while it remains above this
temperature achieves anything (ie if you wanted to you could say that ain
bishul achar bishul for a dvar lach above yad soledet bo, although we
normally don't have any particular need to draw attention to this), if it is
allowed to cool down to a temperature of below yad soledes bo, bringing it
back up over the threashold to over yad soledes bo amounts to cooking it
again.  Ie it is transformed from status X to Y when it crosses the
threshold of yad soledes bo, but then retransforms from Y to X as it drops
below that temperature again.  And hence the application of heat to boost it
up again over yad soledes bo makes it bishul yet again.

Now what you appear to be suggesting as the shita of RYDS is that, while the
first time, in order to transform it from status X to status Y, it needs to
go above yad soledet bo (ie the transformation from X to Y occurs at yad
soledes bo), it then does not revert to status X until it is fully cold.
That, means that RYDS is distinguishing between - let's say a liquid of 35
degrees that has never been cooked to yad soledet bo, and a liquid of 35
degrees that has been cooked to yad soledet bo and cooled down but only so
far as 35 degrees - with the first it is still in status X and bishul is
involved if it is then boosted to yad soledes bo, with the second it is in
status Y and no bishul is involved regardless of how high it goes.  So far,
that is the same position as those who traditionally hold ain bishul achar
bishul vis a vis a liquid of 35 degrees.  It is only at the completely cold
point that RYDS says suddenly there is yesh bishul achar bishul, because
suddenly it is back in status X and hence boosting it to yad soledes bo is
bishul. Presumably however merely boosting it to 35 degrees is not in and of
itself bishul (leaving aside chatzi shiur considerations), that is just
taking the chill off, but then taking that same liquid and boosting it to
yad soledes bo would be bishul because it has reverted to status X.

That means that, while according to the Sephardi and Chazon Ish approach,
there is only ever one threshold that intrinsically matters vis a vis lach,
that of yad soledet bo (and the question just is, does this threshold only
work one way, going up, or two ways, up and down), according to RYDS there
is two, yad soledet for going up and completely cold for going down.

Then the Chazon Ish understands the Rema really as positing a kind of gezera
- either because people might get themselves confused, or they were actually
getting confused, and so one can understand that the people were noheg that
way, they saw a potential for confusion and they acted to avoid it, and
either the Rema is fundamentally commenting on what people do or
alternatively he is really positing a gezera as a good thing because people
tend to be confused between cold cooked liquids and uncooked liquids.

But RYDS is positing an intrinsic halachic distinction (something that
halachically happens).  Does he see this double threshold in the rishonim,
or does he understand this to be a chiddush of the Rema?  Who are the people
following when they are noheg like this?


> GCh
> RRW

Regards

Chana