[Avodah] Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway?

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

Akiva
> But how do you know when you have cooked something to the point that
> *Chazal* would have considered it cooked?

So how do we judge mevushal kol tzorko nowadays? Mitztameik v'yafeh lo?
And by derivation - maachal ben drosai?

Ela mai? rabbis and chemists confer and do their best to ascertain as
to what's going on.

> Let's remember the famous discussion between the Aruch Hashulchan and
> Rav Moshe Feinstein:

Your talking about kalei habishul which is after all a different context
then bishul of beef and chickens

Now about eggs - try boiling an egg (iirc mechabeir lumps this amongst the
kalei habishul) and see how long it takes to boil at various temperatures. Can
you leave it at room temp in Sunlight for 6 hours and get a cooked egg?
OTOH You can with many teas

You can also try frying an egg by sunlight and measure the temperature.

++++++++++++++

Tangentially
Is YSB mamash the threshold of cooking temperature? Or is it a proxy to
judge it halachicaly when we cannot determine that temperature

Lemashal bittul b'60.
Let's say butter falls into chikcen soup and it is determined to be less
than 1/60. Then you taste it and lo and behold the buttery taste is there -
just like in popcorn!

Do we throw nosein ta'am out and rely solely upon 60 even l'hakeil?

Rather 60 in "min beshe'eino minno" is but a proxy for nosein ta'am.
Rambam and Mechabeir still hold from nosein ta'am lechatchilah.

[If you want: you can say 1/60 is not necessarily a blanket heter to
eat mamash rather it's a heter for a Jew to taste test]

Now I'm not sure if YSB is also a proxy or not. But my chavrusa's
experiments were designed to provide more data to help us make more
informed decisions halachically speaking

If Hazal knew about thermometers it is likely we'd have a temperature
based upon that scale instead of YSB.

Probably similar for k'zayis, etc. After all re'viis is no proxy,
it's mamash a measurement.

[Email #2. -mi]

Akiva:
> Let's remember the famous discussion between the Aruch Hashulchan and
> Rav Moshe Feinstein:
> Aruch Hashulchan O"C 318:28 - "Tea, which we pour hot water upon, and
> it is common knowledge that it cooks easily, and it gets cooked even in
> a kli sheni, as our eyes can see. ... Our eyes can see that it cooks in
> a kli sheni and kli shlishi, because it cooks easily ..."

> Igros Moshe O"C 4:74, Bishil 15 (pg 136) - "That's not
> understandable. Granted that our eyes can see the water get red, but
> that has nothing to do with bishul. Even in totally cold water it will
> get red over time! And even more so in warm water which is below yad
> soledes, and this does not constitute bishul...."

Mah hatzad hashaveh?

That both posqim did hands-on observation in addition to book-learning
in order to arrive at a p'saq and - did NOT stop with book-learning
and s'vara

Mussar heskel: sometimes one needs to roll up their sleaves and "get
their hands dirty to know Torah better"

Kakkasuv: "vayeired Hashem lir'os..."

KT
RRW
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